Steeles RT

[RedRocket191]

If the TTC wants to reduce auto use (on Toronto Streets)and increase transit ridership, I would think looking at extending routes that terminate promptly at the Toronto border, would be a logical way to do it.

The Bathurst 7 bus, which terminates at steeles, could be extended up to Promenade Mall (About 2 KM) and would likely see a measurable benifit.

The Jane bus, which runs rush hour service up to Langstaff north of Hwy 7, could be extended 2.5KM up to Vaughan Mills, one of the largest regional malls in Ontario.

I am sure there are many other routes that could benifit from extentions into the regions.

But this still doesn't address the issue at hand - fares.

 

[MisterF]

I've been wondering for a while what people think about the idea of some form of rapid transit on Steeles Road, at least in the Toronto-York Region stretch. While the demand isn't there, it would provide a good link between Toronto and York Region. I was thinking the best option would be a Metrolinx-run LRT that is compatible with both TTC and YRT fares, tickets and metropasses, but that's just my opinion.

I'd like to know what you all think about more advanced transit on Steeles. Discussion about demand of the route, the impact it would bring, and method of transportation it would use are all welcome (including other discussions I haven't thought about)

Light rail lines should be built where demand warrants it, not where municipal boundaries happen to be. The boundary is irrelevant to the merits of a Steeles line, especially if it's being planned by a provincial agency.

 

[lead82]

Steeles definitely needs some rapid transit. While it's generally fast from Yonge to Don Mills, It's slow from Yonge west to York U and east of Don Mills to just past Kennedy.

For Steeles west I would suggest a true express service like 53E, and not the crappy Yonge only express 60E,F.

BRT would be more than adequate. Heck, even just widening the street to add an HOV lane where it's narrower than 3 lanes each way would be enough, since outside of peak periods, traffic moves very fast.

The only reason LRT would be the best service is due to the fact that the road is in awful shape. Very bumpy and lots of road cracks. A BRT ride would be very bumpy and uncomfortable. I doubt the road quality situation will improve any time soon given the pettiness of local politicians.

LRT would provide a smooth ride, but BRT or HOV lanes would be cheapest options that would provide the same kind of rapid service quality.

 

[Amphibius]

I don't think rapid transit along Steeles Avenue is a wise investment with so many rapid services services slated to be running parallel to and intercepting it in the near future: Finch Hydro Corridor BRT, Finch West LRT, 407 Transitway, Hwy 7 BRT, York University GO, Steeles West/Steeles transit hubs, Don Mills/Steeles, Miliken GO, McCowan/Steeles (TC Phase II). It'd be major overkill especially when so many 60/53 buses get short-turned mid-route due to lack of ridership on the outskirts. If passengers utilize any of those aforementioned alternative services, the Steeles bus will only be credible for short-distance trips.

 

[jaycola]

But this still doesn't address the issue at hand - fares.

The fares are not the only issue.
If we can increase ridership on these routes as a result of terminating them at places that make sence, such as these Malls and Asmusement Parks, the route extension pays for itself. What is the cost to extend a route 2-3 KM? if you have to charge for the extra service, it should be an amount small enough to encourage usage. It should not be punitive.

 

[RedRocket191]

The fares are not the only issue.
If we can increase ridership on these routes as a result of terminating them at places that make sence, such as these Malls and Asmusement Parks, the route extension pays for itself. What is the cost to extend a route 2-3 KM? if you have to charge for the extra service, it should be an amount small enough to encourage usage. It should not be punitive.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't be doing that. In many cases we are doing it. 160 Bathurst North is an example of it. You could have a bus every 10 minutes or better but the double fare are Steeles is going to hamper cross border ridership.

A friend of mine could walk 5 minutes to a YRT stop on Yonge Street and easily ride to Finch but chooses to drive to avoid paying a second fare. This decision forces her to be in the lot by 7:30 every morning even when she doesn't have class until 1 pm. Unfortunately, this story is typical.

 

[lead82]

In this case, wouldn't it be cheaper to pay the 2nd fare rather than parking at Finch for $6 a day? Assuming one gets YRT tickets, each one costs $2.60 (for 1 zone), so that's $5.20 a day vs $6 + gas.

Also, why does she need to be a Finch lot by 7:30? With $6 fee, the lot is no longer full by 9AM anymore, especially the east lot.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

In this case, wouldn't it be cheaper to pay the 2nd fare rather than parking at Finch for $6 a day? Assuming one gets YRT tickets, each one costs $2.60 (for 1 zone), so that's $5.20 a day vs $6 + gas.

You're right, mathematically. For me it ends up being largely a principle thing. If a normal fare is $2.50 and it was, say, another $1 for getting on TTC I think it would be fine. But there is something galling about paying that second fare to the point where one just says, "I'd rather stay in my car and drive to Finch than walk to the bus stop, wait, pay one fare, get to Finch and pay another."

(I'm with you that I might change my mind if I had to rush out at 7:30 for a 1pm class, however...that's extreme.)

People who don't have cars will simply do the math, wondering if it's worth walking say 15 or 20 minutes to Steeles just to save the extra fare.

It goes to the whole argument of how the fare structure is interfering with the commuting patterns which should exist. If riders regarded the system as "fair" they wouldn't have to do these things.

I would think any transit provider would look at what people are doing to avoid the double fare and try to remedy it in some way and I think that's mostly what people are getting act when we talk about this "Thornhill Problem."

 

[Disparishun]

A friend of mine could walk 5 minutes to a YRT stop on Yonge Street and easily ride to Finch but chooses to drive to avoid paying a second fare. This decision forces her to be in the lot by 7:30 every morning even when she doesn't have class until 1 pm. Unfortunately, this story is typical.

Yep. I am a 1-minute walk to the YRT 5 bus, a 10-minute walk to all the YRT/VIVA buses that ply Yonge/Clark, a 15-minute walk to the Steeles West bus stop at Hilda/Steeles ... and a 10-minute drive to the subway.

We have only one car and I am not the one who uses it (it would just sit in a lot), but between lifts and the TTC bus, I do not often pay the double fare. While this is a problem everywhere in the GTA due to the lack of integrated fares, it is particularly a problem in single zones served by multiple transit agencies with multiple fare structures.

It is in those zones, like Willowdale/Thornhill, where the silliness of not having integrated fares is most obvious.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

An LRT on Steeles seems like a good idea, but it's really not...not right now, anyway. Demand on Steeles is probably just as high (and possibly higher) than demand on Transfer City routes like Jane, Don Mills, even Eglinton. Peak loads, though, not total ridership. Ridership stays strong way out on Steeles East, less so on Steeles West...however, that ridership base is clear proof that a huge portion of Steeles East riders should be riding on improved GO trains instead, if only such trains existed (Midtown, Stouffville, Richmond Hill, even a hydro corridor line would be incredibly useful for long-distance trips). Removing the double fare will also hurt Steeles ridership since it's artificially propped up by people walking or getting driven to Steeles to avoid the double fare - if TTC and YRT were integrated systems, many would ride north/south routes like Bathurst or Warden and not take Steeles at all.

 

[Disparishun]

There are no dense developments on Steeles, and except for short commercial stretches like Pacific Mall and the Don Mills-404-Victoria Park area, most of Steeles run through residential areas, often between subdivisions where both sides of the avenue look into other people's backyards. Compared to Sheppard or Finch, Steeles is pretty much an expressway.

True on the Markham/Toronto sides on which the Steeles East bus runs.

But there is something interesting happening on the Vaughan/Toronto sides of Steeles in the Thornhill portion between Yonge and Dufferin. First, there has been quite a bit of building -- 10-storey boxes, not highrises. The funny thing is how many of them are seniors' homes. Second, the strip malls there are really very lively -- for much of Thornhill-Vaughan and Willowdale, Steeles is very much a Main Street.

However:

I don't think rapid transit along Steeles Avenue is a wise investment with so many rapid services services slated to be running parallel to and intercepting it in the near future: Finch Hydro Corridor BRT, Finch West LRT, 407 Transitway, Hwy 7 BRT, York University GO, Steeles West/Steeles transit hubs, Don Mills/Steeles, Miliken GO, McCowan/Steeles (TC Phase II).

This is a pretty good point. Parts of Steeles are very heavy traffic, and other parts are a fast artery. But there will be lots of east-west public transit both north of Steeles and south of it.

 

[BMO]

I think Steeles could easily provide the numbers for LRT on steeles west from Yonge to Jane, it would also in the future provide a fast and convenient connection between spadina line and yonge line, i know that the 407 and finch are close, but in all honesty, I live at yonge and steeles and i hardly ever use finch to get accross town, I will allways take steeles, even if steeles is busy. So i don't think the excuse about how finch lrt will take away numbers or the 407 transitway will take away numbers, has too much concrete backing.

 

[Amphibius]

I think people will utilize which ever transit routing's closest to them no matter what. It's about what's most convenient. This is why I don't necessarily agree with the Finch West LRT proposal because for passengers transferring off a N-S bus route onto it, it doesn't really matter if they interchange at Finch Avenue or in the Finch Hydro Corridor (IMO, the better option whereby BRT services could offer mutually beneficial accessibility to Etobicoke North GO, greater Jane-Finch area, Finch West Stn [Four Winds exit], Finch TTC/GO hub, Old Cummer GO, Seneca College, etc.). What matters most is how fast and reliably that rapid transit service gets one crosstown thereafter.

However, I don't think an abridged LRT between Steeles and Steeles West Stns makes much sense in the grand scheme of things. We already have the 60C bus which more or less duplicates that routing, and could become limited stopping only in the future. That should suffice the Point A-B niche just fine. Also in a post-YUS extensions world, many of the existing N-S routes within range that terminate at Steeles Ave will likely utilize Steeles as a connector thoroughfare towards terminating at a proper station transit hub instead (either @Steeles or Steeles West). So with all Leslie, Bayview, Route 98, Bathurst, Faywood, Dufferin, Alness, Keele, Jane, Hwy 400 lands and Weston Rd bus traffic routing along it, in addition to the regular 53/60 buses, service across the mid-section of Steeles could be as frequent as every 60 seconds.

 

[doady]

This September, Brampton Transit will increase the frequency of 11 Steeles East to 4 minutes (!) which will make it the most frequent bus route in the 905...

 

[Amphibius]

Great, now if only they'd fix the section east of Kenview. I see no reason why the 50 Gore Rd bus couldn't handle the section north of Finch (Albion-Humberwood)? Virtually no one wants off the bus through this stretch.