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Steeles RT

Second_in_pie

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I've been wondering for a while what people think about the idea of some form of rapid transit on Steeles Road, at least in the Toronto-York Region stretch. While the demand isn't there, it would provide a good link between Toronto and York Region. I was thinking the best option would be a Metrolinx-run LRT that is compatible with both TTC and YRT fares, tickets and metropasses, but that's just my opinion.

I'd like to know what you all think about more advanced transit on Steeles. Discussion about demand of the route, the impact it would bring, and method of transportation it would use are all welcome (including other discussions I haven't thought about) :D
 
Given it wasn't in the first phase, in the next 15 year, I'd hold off solving the technology until we see how the Finch LRT turns out; and how demand and growth change on Steeles between now and 2025.
 
What routes are on the list for TC II? And where can I get info on this?
Thanks!
 
Toronto should first annex the lands north of Steeles up to the 407 before even thinking about putting in any kind of rapid transit on Steeles. Steeles is the frontier boundary between York Region and the City of Toronto, and look how well the road is being maintained. Not very.

In fact, annexation should be considered before building any extension of the Spadina HRT subway. So a rapid transit line on Steeles will not happen.
 
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Toronto should first annex the lands north of Steeles up to the 407 before even thinking about putting in any kind of rapid transit on Steeles. Steeles is the frontier boundary between Peel Region and the City of Toronto, and look how well the road is being maintained. Not very.

In fact, annexation should be considered before building any extension of the Spadina HRT subway. So a rapid transit line on Steeles will not happen.

Or, we could just have Vaughan and Markham raise densities... Kinda like what they're doing at Vaughan Centre... where they are building the subway to...

I don't see why it has to be annexed. I don't see Markham and Vaughan as being any more inept than any other municipality. I don't buy that whole "I don't trust that they will do it" argument.
 
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Vaughan and Markham (aka York Region, NOT Peel region, and all the important parts of Steeles only border Toronto and York Region) are already going to raise densities as part of the Yonge Subway expansion plans. If the Yonge Expansion gets built, and even if it doesn't, fully expect that the already fully developed York Region Yonge Corridor to add another 100,000 people in the next 25 years via intensification.

Meanwhile as part of the Yonge Street intensification plans, Vaughan is actually intending to intensify Steeles from Yonge all the way to the newest condos near Bathurst. There's a lot of car dealerships and strip malls there, that could easily be bulldozed to make some very good mid-rise mixed use development 2 blocks deep which is exactly what Vaughan is intending:

http://www.city.vaughan.on.ca/newscentre/projects/yonge_street_study.cfm

Furthermore, along the York University corridor, there's plenty of absolutely nothing inbetween Steeles and the power lines that could easily become office parks or research-related (related to York U) buildings as well as further expansion by York University northwards. Then there's also the possibility of the City of Toronto completely developing the 1km of strip malls that runs on the south side of Steeles just west of Dufferin. Meanwhile the corner of Dufferin and Steeles is slowly filling in with condos.

Finally, west of Jane until Weston there's a lot of strip malls that could easily intensify if need be in the future.

On the Markham side of things, unfortunately due to the makeup of the street, I doubt Steeles from Yonge to Don Mills will actually change. It would be far too difficult to change that area due to the great number of individual houses and small properties that would have to be bought up/expropriated while there are so many better places to build.

Still, there were plans not too long ago (probably abandoned now due to financial crisis but who knows) to transform the Shoppes and Steeles & 404 (the mall) into a mixed use 'urban mall' development much like the newly revamped Don Mills Mall. If Don Mills Transit city becomes a reality, this could easily happen in the future.

East of the 404, there is far more opportunity for intensification and change. There are large plots of empty land from the 404 all the way until Warden scattered on both the north and south side of Steeles. The rest is occupied by massive office buildings (for IBM, BMO, etc) and some strip malls/Chinese malls which could be intensified later on.

The strip from Warden to Kennedy would likely remain the way it is for a long time due to the single detached house nature of the area. Meanwhile east of Kennedy from Pacific Mall until Midland there's a lot of opportunity for future intensification, especially as developments up Midland go all the way to Steeles, new developments from Downtown Markham and south on Kennedy to Steeles extend to Steeles, and if that GO station there is fully utilized. Further than that I doubt much more could happen.



A potential Steeles RT would link up many future transit links, forming an even better network. Already Steeles 60 and Steeles 53 buses are some of the busiest buses in all of Toronto. While not as busy as Finch, with the aformentioned possibilities of intensification, I could see it going pretty far.

A Steeles RT would connect with:
Spadina Line at Steeles West Station (at York U)
Yonge Line extension Steeles Station (Yonge and Steeles)
Don Mills Transit City Steeles Station (Don Mills and Steeles)

Furthermore, if TC ever gets fully built, with Downtown Markham being a reality, I could see a Kennedy TC line being a reality, to connect Downtown Markham with STC running by Pacific Mall and of course connecting to Steeles.

Steeles isn't ready yet for an RT line just yet. As well, the section where the 5km from Don Mills to Yonge on Steeles which will likely never change much in the foreseeable future would be a total bypass route, which would cost a lot of money. Meanwhile, if that section wasn't built, then the full network benefits would not be realized as there wouldn't be a good way for customers taking the already extremely busy Steeles 53/53E to not face the wrath of many transfers, nor would it help in the many people who would see the employment centres by Steeles and 404 and Pacific Mall as a destination to use transit due to the number of potential transfers.

Perhaps if this part were not ROW, but instead standard streetcar tracks, then it would be more compatible (as there is limited room for expansion of Steeles inbetween Yonge and Bayview) I also wonder about the ability of RT to go on that massive hill up Steeles from Bayview to Yonge safely, but I'm not an LRT expert.
 
York and Toronto can't even decide who will fix the potholes on Steeles, never mind RT.
 
York and Toronto can't even decide who will fix the potholes on Steeles, never mind RT.
Which is why I think it would be a good project for Metrolinx to take up, among other things. Putting it under charge of Metrolinx would probably make it a much more regional system than if it was just under TTC or YRT charge. I was thinking they could make the fare system so that YRT and TTC tickets and metropasses are accepted but otherwise there would be a standard fare to pay, which would be fair to both people in Toronto and York Region.

Epi, that whole post is full of good points. The only problem I see is that Steeles is rather far away from all the City Centres, so there's not really any reason for high rises to actually pop up along those empty spaces. Maybe 20 years from now development will start, but from a transit company standpoint, there isn't really much demand for an LRT right now. I can't wait for a Kennedy LRT though :D
 
York and Toronto can't even decide who will fix the potholes on Steeles, never mind RT.
Well that makes it simple. Metrolinx has already committed to Steeles - so let them deal with it, and Toronto can stay out of it, and spend it's money on other projects.
 
I see a Steeles LRT running from Durham to Milton.

BT runs 7 minute headway and there is a need for it to decrease the headway now.

The service west of Hurontario would see higher headway.
 
Judging by the rhetoric of politicians, it looks like a Berlin-like municipal wall is more likely to be built along Steeles Avenue than a rapid transit line.
 
Epi, that whole post is full of good points. The only problem I see is that Steeles is rather far away from all the City Centres, so there's not really any reason for high rises to actually pop up along those empty spaces. Maybe 20 years from now development will start, but from a transit company standpoint, there isn't really much demand for an LRT right now. I can't wait for a Kennedy LRT though :D

Thanks. Yeah in my post I also said that Steeles isn't ready for an RT yet as well. I think Steeles is at least 20 years away, at least until all the subway extensions are done, the Don Mills RT is built, and some more intensification happens to make it worthwile. Still if Transit City actually gets built as planned in the next 10 years, then planning for TC2 would be finished in 15 years (who knows what framework transit will work within, in the GTA by then?), and then a Steeles RT would materialize in 20, just in time for that demand.
 
Sad but true: the municipal politicians need to be sent into the corner to huff and puff in isolation while the province gets things done or we'll forever be mired in a swamp of segregationist municipal politics.

Metrolinx actually needs to do what it was created to do: take over all public transit in the GTHA. Anything else is second-best. Steeles is just a very good example of this. I have a dream.....but I'm not holding my breath.
 

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