St. James Park Revitalization (PMA Landscape Architects)

[UtakataNoAnnex]

I doubt vandalism of this sort is premeditated to the point of someone resorting to wearing masks for it.

AoD

I think these taggings are more premeditated than folks like to think. And knowing they're being watched will only lead to them finding more ways around that. Or tagging more things that are not being watched. And so forth...

...it boils down to me of having more security at the expense of our freedoms. We will likely end up with neither.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I think these taggings are more premeditated than folks like to think. And knowing they're being watched will only lead to them finding more ways around that. Or tagging more things that are not being watched. And so forth...

All the more reason to identify, catch and take these individuals out of circulation then. I don't necessarily subscribe to the extremes of broken window theory - however these sorts of vandalism just encourage further transgressions without check, and I don't want to get to a point where we have to ask why can't we have nice things.

AoD

 

[UtakataNoAnnex]

All the more reason to identify, catch and take these individuals out of circulation then. I don't necessarily subscribe to the extremes of broken window theory - however these sorts of vandalism just encourage further transgressions without check, and I don't want to get to a point where we have to ask why can't we have nice things.

AoD

I don't think that will ever be tenable. And even if so, not with a degree of sacrifices that will likely end up biting us in our asses. Perhaps we should start instead of not looking at this as an us versus them paradigm, as that leads to whole lot of problematic thinking and bad policies that do nothing to really solve this, to put it mildly.

...but it is interesting to note though of why people can't have nice things as I've already made a point of this. That is, I wonder again if public efforts should be focused on more graffiti resilient materials and programs that discourage bad habits with positive ones, as oppose to more intrusive solutions such as CCTV, hostile architecture and/or bloated police presence.

 

[afransen]

Firstly not only is having an overpoliced state not the ideal outcome, but avoiding CCTV and fines would be easy (wear masks, etc). It's not the solution here.

I think you are not up to date on things like gait analysis to identify people.

 

[DKsan]

Maybe a controversial take, but CCTV with AI monitoring in public places doesn't seem like a big invasion of privacy. We have ring doorbells watching you as you walk down the street already...

I'd say this kind of thing is controversial because between cameras not capturing skin tones and hand dryers unable to detect people, AI isn't neutral because the people programming such systems have biases and inadvertently programme these into smart systems.

 

[afransen]

Thankfully we're not making AI judge, jury and executioner. Just helping to identify when a particular act of vandalism happened and providing photographic evidence for disciplinary proceedings. One might say it is controversial to assume that perpetrators will be racialized.

The hand dryer thing is not even AI, it is just how a sensor is calibrated or designed.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Thankfully we're not making AI judge, jury and executioner. Just helping to identify when a particular act of vandalism happened and providing photographic evidence for disciplinary proceedings. One might say it is controversial to assume that perpetrators will be racialized.

The hand dryer thing is not even AI, it is just how a sensor is calibrated or designed.

Unless you have algorithmic transparency, there is no guarantee that the identification process itself isn't free from bias. I have no issue with CCTV (you are in the public afterall, being observed is the very nature of being public); I have grave concerns about dumping their output into an blackbox and treating it as an Oracle.

AoD

 

[afransen]

Unless you have algorithmic transparency, there is no guarantee that the identification process itself isn't free from bias. I have no issue with CCTV (you are in the public afterall, being observed is the very nature of being public); I have grave concerns about dumping their output into an AI blackbox and treating it as an Oracle.

AoD

All I am talking about is using AI to scrub video for relevant moments in time. Legitimate concerns about inherent bias in AI is not a reason to leave our public spaces to the be destroyed.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

All I am talking about is using AI to scrub video for relevant moments in time. Legitimate concerns about inherent bias in AI is not a reason to leave our public spaces to the be destroyed.

That I don't have a huge issue with.

AoD

 

[UtakataNoAnnex]

(you are in the public afterall, being observed is the very nature of being public)

I can almost see them using that argument in North Korea. >.<

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I can almost see them using that argument in North Korea. >.<

Or London, UK.

AoD

 

[Northern Light]

Or London, UK.

AoD

Worth saying the data on London's CCTV system indicates it did relatively little to lower crime; and has come at both financial cost and privacy cost.

From: https://www.aclu.org/other/whats-wrong-public-video-surveillance


Of note, also from the above, the CCTV related budget now consumes a whopping 20% of the UK's annual domestic security spending.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Worth saying the data on London's CCTV system indicates it did relatively little to lower crime; and has come at both financial cost and privacy cost.

View attachment 324853

From: https://www.aclu.org/other/whats-wrong-public-video-surveillance


Of note, also from the above, the CCTV related budget now consumes a whopping 20% of the UK's annual domestic security spending.

Is it about reduction of crime, or is it about providing evidence so that the perpetrators of crime can be identified and caught? Rather different end goals there.

AoD

 

[Northern Light]

Is it about reduction of crime, or is it about providing evidence so that the perpetrators of crime can be identified and caught? Rather different end goals there.

AoD

If crime isn't being reduced; then either the system is not producing additional identifications; or it is, and that makes no difference.

Either way, it's a fail.

Arrests are more about prevention than punishment (ideally)

By stopping someone inclined to break the law from doing so again, by way of detaining them, and by deterring others by making examples of offenders.

If arrests either don't result in detention or deterrence, and they don't seem to have in London; then I'm not sure what the motivation is for trading away privacy or for spending the $$$.

 

[UtakataNoAnnex]

Or London, UK.

AoD

Was that where members of the police services where caught using CCTV for more voyeuristic purposes?

...that said, I don't really want to get into the more extreme abuses of CCTV or public surveillance in general. But I think it should at least pointed out where this all could go. So it would comfort me more if folks insist of going this route, then it should least be done with a degree of public accountability and openness.

I still don't think it will do a hill of beans to stop the blight of problematic tagging. An issue that likely started when our ancestors learned how to paint on cave walls and what not. And marking seems to be an overall issue with the mammal line of vertebrates outside of that. So really, good luck with that.