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St. Clair ROW: What Went Wrong

Thanks James. Can I ask then (to anyone ...), once this is complete, will it all have been worth it? I'm a strong supporter of transit, but I do understand how projects get delayed etc. Once it's done and we're past the delays etc., was this the right thing to do?
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I firmly believe that, at the end of the day, the residents and business owners of St. Clair will have a significantly improved transit facility that will be a great benefit to their neighbourhood. And you have to consider that, barring unforeseen circumstances, this infrastructure will not need to be renewed for another thirty years or so. So, once this opens, business can finally get down to the business of business and the St. Clair line will be bringing them customers.

HOWEVER!

We've subjected these individuals to far more disruption than we expected -- certainly much more than these individuals had reason to expect. We've hobbled them for far longer than we should have, and planners, City officials, et cetera, made a series of mistakes, some of which were entirely preventable. We should have done better and we didn't, and that's an indictment on municipal officials and planners.

And it is important to note these mistakes and investigate them, so that they don't happen again, and not just for the coming projects of Transit City. Any and all projects that the City proceeds with, from transit improvements to road projects, could benefit from a good long look at this project, and how _not_ to engage the community.
 
-I think they should drop the schedule for the streetcars all together.

-Put enough streetcars on the routes to have frequent service and they go AFAP
(As Fast As Possible)

-POP

-No left Turns
(see attachement for alternative)

Red Arrow forbidden
Green arrow alternative

For the BRT on Pie-IX in Motreal its no left turn on the whole boulevard and this is the alternative and no one complained so far. It's been lke that for nearly
years http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_bus_rapid_transit
 

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^^^

Or they could just move the Left turn signal to the end of the signal phase if a streetcar is present, and only have the signal if cars are still waiting to turn left.

One big thing I hate about St Clair is those centre poles, there was never any reason to have them, they made the ROW wider and the sidewalks narrower, while making the ROW harder for buses and emergency vehicles to use. They also add visual clutter to the street.
 
I'm wondering, once the St Clair ROW is all complete, what the general judgment will be of St Clair's ROW vs Spadina's ROW (keeping in mind CDL.TO's when-all-is-said-and-done comment)
 
Quick question, perhaps for answering by Drum or someone similarly in the know: why are there still wooden hydro poles (with new luminaires!) between Avenue and about Russell Hill? I was told that the entire stretch had been undergrounded.

Typically I would blame Hydro for not removing their obsolete poles, but the new luminaires suggest they are staying.
 
Personally, I prefer the centre poles. If it used side poles sidewalk/roadway space would be taken away twice as much. Also, I consider side poles to be bigger clutter because there must be wires over the entire street, while with sentre poles it's right there. Centre poles also give more character to the ROW, idk why, but side poles just scream slow downtown streetcars, and centre poles are more LRTy
 
allabootmatt said:
Quick question, perhaps for answering by Drum or someone similarly in the know: why are there still wooden hydro poles (with new luminaires!) between Avenue and about Russell Hill? I was told that the entire stretch had been undergrounded.

Typically I would blame Hydro for not removing their obsolete poles, but the new luminaires suggest they are staying.
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Ran out of money.

One of many things that will stay for some years until the issue is resolve.

Take a look at phase III on the north side and you will see cable running from pole to pole. I guess someone was welling to spend less money to have it in the air than underground. Defeat the process.
 
jks said:
Personally, I prefer the centre poles. If it used side poles sidewalk/roadway space would be taken away twice as much. Also, I consider side poles to be bigger clutter because there must be wires over the entire street, while with sentre poles it's right there. Centre poles also give more character to the ROW, idk why, but side poles just scream slow downtown streetcars, and centre poles are more LRTy
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As a supporter of centre poles, I am disappointed with the out come.

The poles can be space up to 40m's apart, but TTC decided to go shorter.

There was the talk that the poles at the end of the platforms for intersection would be taller to support the wire over the intersection and not have to put extra poles in to hold the wires.

There was the talk that the centre poles would be light mass.

Another case of TTC and Hydro not been on the same page.
 
CDL.TO said:
I still think it was the right thing to do. Walking along St. Clair through Corso Italia last summer, where the ROW is complete but no streetcars are running, I already felt a change in the feel of the streetscape. By removing two lanes of traffic, the ROW has the effect of making the street seem more personal and urban.

The construction project has been a boondoggle, but I think it will really help improve St. Clair as a street in the long run.
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The St. Clair ROW should be judged as a transit project not an aesthetic one. If it can efficiently move travellers, cost effectively, without negatively impacting non transit travellers, then it is good.

What I fear is that the same thing will happen on St. Clair that happened on Spadina. Over a hundred million dollars spent on a system, while prettier, does not improve transit. The benefits in travel time will not materialize some stops will be removed and transit will be given priority at lights. Negatively effecting vehicular traffic and ignoring what doing so would have done for the existing streetcar on St. Clair.
 
Glen said:
The St. Clair ROW should be judged as a transit project not an aesthetic one. If it can efficiently move travellers, cost effectively, without negatively impacting non transit travellers, then it is good.

What I fear is that the same thing will happen on St. Clair that happened on Spadina. Over a hundred million dollars spent on a system, while prettier, does not improve transit. The benefits in travel time will not materialize some stops will be removed and transit will be given priority at lights. Negatively effecting vehicular traffic and ignoring what doing so would have done for the existing streetcar on St. Clair.
Click to expand...

I think it should be judged on both transit and aesthetic criteria. If it improves the character of the street, we shouldn't simply ignore that fact.

I think almost all of the TTC's service issues on a line like this are caused by poor line management. If vehicles don't leave their terminals as scheduled or are given too much time to operate a run so they have to drive slow, no amount of infrastructure spending is going to fix it. The construction of the ROW has provided the necessary infrastructure to allow for a good transit line in the future, but that's only half the necessary formula.

I have high hopes for the introduction of headway-based line management.
 
How could you not judge the aesthetic impact of this project? It has totally changed the streetscape in a manner similar to the removal of the original ROW.
 
Earlscourt_Lad said:
How could you not judge the aesthetic impact of this project? It has totally changed the streetscape in a manner similar to the removal of the original ROW.
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I am not saying that you can't but rather that you shouldn't. If it does little to improve transit then it is fair game to ask, would that money have been better spent in 'beautifying' St. Clair?
 
Glen said:
What I fear is that the same thing will happen on St. Clair that happened on Spadina. Over a hundred million dollars spent on a system, while prettier, does not improve transit. The benefits in travel time will not materialize some stops will be removed and transit will be given priority at lights. Negatively effecting vehicular traffic and ignoring what doing so would have done for the existing streetcar on St. Clair.
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Glen, I think you're too hard on Spadina. The old system of diesel buses running on that street was just awful. And the diagonal parking that was there. It was a painful jarring whipsaw ride from Dundas to, say, Bloor. And it couldn't have done the equipment any favours.

Now, its like warp speed on a starship:)
 
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