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St. Clair ROW: What Went Wrong

hatfield

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Forgive me because I don't know all the history behind St. Clair ROW, but everyone seems to complain about it, and say it is not an example to base Transit City on etc.

What are the issues with St. Clair, what went wrong? To me, on the surface it sounds like a great idea. RoW on a busy easy-west street should speed up travel from Keele to Yonge.

Aside from local community activists, what do people hate about this project? And how will Transit City be different (or will it ??? )
 
One thing that I would change about it is

1. I would have less frequent stops for a faster trip.

and 2. I would us LRT vehicles (which are twice as big as common streetcars, with a pre-paid system, low floors and move faster).

Just a note: Transit City plans to include all of these aspects.

But even without them, I still find St.-Clair to be great. Much of the complaining is unwarranted.
 
What went wrong? The construction went wrong. The TTC are clearly terrible project managers.

The plan was first announced in 2003 (right?). Construction started in 2005 or so. It's now 2009 and one-third of the ROW is in service. I highly doubt that the next phase will open before 2010, and that will still only bring us up to 73% of the route. When should be expect the full project to be complete? 2012? 2013?

Seven years to build a 6.5km streetcar line. In comparison, the 5.6km Sheppard subway took eight years to build, including delays due to funding drying up after the election of Mike Harris.
 
I think that the majority of those people that complain about the St. Clair ROW are partially to blame. The SOS campaign that began to protest the ROW 5 years ago caused many delays. They sued the city and ended up losing in the end. However, this caused construction schedules to become disjointed, leading to what was supposed to be a 2yr project stretch into a 4 year mess.

It will hopefully be completed this year. Other than that, I agree with the fact that St. Clair has way too many unnecessary stops, especially around St. Clair West station. The one between Spadina and the station is just plain ridiculous. TTC seems to say it's about accessibility, but really, I think it's just poor planning. Adding extra stops results in extra traffic lights which actually causes the line to be less efficient to operate.

I would remove like 30% of the stops on the line to make it better. Other than that, I think the ROW is a great addition to the neighbourhood and it will be an asset for years and decades to come.
 
CDL nailed it.

Not only did they f-up the construction, but they also built it in the most ineffective way. First the built the segment from Yonge to St. Clair West. Fine. Then they ripped up the section in Corso Italia, forcing shuttle buses to ply the western 2/3 of the route. Then they redid the loop inside St Clair W subway station so you needed to take a shuttle bus, anyway. Then they timed it so that they would reconstruct the feeder tracks on Bathurst which led, I believe, to having a finite number of streetcars stranded on St. Clair West to make the trip from St. Clair to St. Clair West while you would go the rest of the way on a shuttle bus. They still have to redo the middle section through Hillcrest village and the tail end through St. Clair Gardens.

It was the construction equivalent of eating a burrito at both ends.
 
  1. There were problems with wiring conduits at St. Clair West station that were not recorded in their blueprints properly.
  2. Snow, snow, and more snow in 2007-2008. And snow and snow in 2008-2009, and counting.
  3. No "overlord" who could make sure the different construction schedules (electricity, water, gas, etc.) were being followed properly, and not interfering or waiting on each other.
  4. Limits on when construction can be done.
  5. S.O.S. caused delays and complaints about everything.
  6. Too many stops
  7. Left turn lanes. The original right-of-way had no left turn lanes. To put in the left turn lanes, they took away sidewalk space.
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Their community consultations have led to many compromises like saving stops which were supposed to be removed and making concessions for drivers like the turning lanes. They've compromised the improvements to the speed of the line. They said it would be similar Transit City at one point, but it's being built as a local streetcar line with a ROW.

The worst part is the construction effort, which is dragging on.
 
What went wrong, not buddy was on the same page nor the funding there in the first place.

We had a small band of SOS who only could see cars as well having to make a u-turn catering to a small number of ppl with no thought to other larger group.

I will Repeat myself again ""TTC IS NOT RUNNING THIS PROJECT"".

""THE CITY OF TORONTO "" is the planner and the party responsible for the design and construction as well calling tenders and awarding them.

TTC is responsible for the design work of tracks and poles as well platforms. They are responsible for track laying.

TTC was heavy handed in the EA process.

TTC Cow Bow to a small group by not removing various stops.

The City of Toronto refused to look at LRT's in the late 90's and keep pushing the purchase down the road onto someone else watch to what we got today.

TTC has refused to upgrade the track system when rebuilding them to meet current standards for LRT's.

Since traffic engineers were running this project, their main object was more room for lanes including turning lanes. This meant that sidewalks and platforms width had to be cut in the name of traffic.

Toronto Hydro delay this project as they wanted to get the last cent out of the wires and poles until the City finally said forget the cost and do the work. Since Hydro had more projects than manpower, they delay Fleet and St Clair until they were push to do it by Council.

Since there is very little in money for this project, corners were cut and material was down graded. One only has to look at Lansdowne Loop to see this as it does not meet the presentation drawing shown to the public, but to the BIA and at CLC meetings.

As much as I jump on TTC, this is an area that I can defend them at the same time.

As for St Clair West, very hard to do the work when someone fails to update drawing as changes are done. There is a debate still who should done it, but time to move on.

I known the contractor doing Phase II work and he will get it done on his terms and it will be done as fast as possible and proper. He did Dundas 2006-07 except the section from Ossington to Yonge done by the night crew who were out to lunch.

What is the since doing work only to have water lines been dug up after the work is done or something else require digging the road up again. Get all the other work done first, then start the track work.

Water work is taking place, hydro is done as well the gas line.

Based on all the snow this year that is just like 2008 it will delay construction as well cause problem when work is taking place at that time. Only have to look at Phase III to see this.

Come March or early April, there will be more than one crew doing work on Phase II with over 50 personal on site doing the work.

From what I hear, the north side is to be done first with traffic on the south side.

I would love to see a few more inches added to the ROW so buses could use it.
 
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The real test starts when construction ends. Will the city time lights and detect approaching streetcars intelligently or will the streetcar always need to come to a stop or near stop before the intersection before stopping again at the platform across the intersection? On Queens Quay they still haven't got the sensors far enough from the intersection and the timing quick enough that streetcars avoid slowing when nobody is getting on or off.
 
I find it hard to make any defense of this project. From the cackhanded build schedule (why not just start at one end and go west/east?), to the shoddy work (several traffic lights between Dufferin & Lansdowne rotate in heavy winds), to poor communication (has anyone been given a realistic completion date?), and so forth.

That said, I still think it will eventually be a great asset to the neighbourhoods it traverses.
 
Several things went wrong about the project, some of which caused a domino effect that we're still working our way out of.

The big strike was the court injunction the SOS group got which stopped construction on the line for six months -- an injunction that was granted by a three judge tribunal that included one judge who was later found to be in a clear conflict of interest. When this was discovered, the injunction was quickly overturned and the judge is now facing disciplinary charges, but the damage was already done. Tenders were knocked out of schedule, and the tendering process had to be restarted in a number of instances, further delaying the project.

There was also great difficulty in coordinating the work between the City of Toronto (TTC) and the City of Toronto (Hydro). The TTC crews have been largely at the mercy of Hydro crews in terms of burying the Hydro wires, and this hasn't been limited to the St. Clair project. The lengthy delay to the reconstruction of the tracks on Fleet Street was also affected by this.

The project was also afflicted by sheer bad luck, from problems with the setting of concrete, to the shocking (ha) discovery of electrical wires in the trackbed that weren't described in the original plans.

That said, the TTC should share some of the blame, especially with how relations between the project and SOS deteriorated. Though the project was supported by a majority of ratepayers in the neighbourhood (witness vote results from the 2006 election, and the organization of SCRIPT), TTC planners still went into some meetings with the attitude of "this is what we'll build, take it or leave it." Concerns over loss of parking space, left turn lanes and, most importantly, sidewalk space, were glossed over. This attitude problem has been noted at other TTC public consulting meetings, and the adversarial relationship between the TTC and SOS was the result.

As for the burgeoning cost, this was the result of a fairly simple project (the initial idea of upgrading the St. Clair tracks as part of scheduled maintenance was budgeted at just $6 million more than what was already budgeted for the scheduled track replacement) becoming something of a Christmas tree which had all sorts of things hung on it. The movement of Hydro wires was not part of the original project. Then there were plans for new street furniture and a beautification program until we were flirting with a $100 million price tag. This was likely the result of a modest project moving forward with little oversight. It grew organically, and overgrew.

Transit City at least has been launched as a major project rather than "hey, we have an opportunity here to do something on the cheap". It requires a full EA and extensive design, and should be under greater control. It also travels along streets which are, by and large, wider than St. Clair, resulting in fewer compromises.

...James
 
Thanks James. Can I ask then (to anyone ...), once this is complete, will it all have been worth it? I'm a strong supporter of transit, but I do understand how projects get delayed etc. Once it's done and we're past the delays etc., was this the right thing to do?
 
I still think it was the right thing to do. Walking along St. Clair through Corso Italia last summer, where the ROW is complete but no streetcars are running, I already felt a change in the feel of the streetscape. By removing two lanes of traffic, the ROW has the effect of making the street seem more personal and urban.

The construction project has been a boondoggle, but I think it will really help improve St. Clair as a street in the long run.
 

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