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Smitherman's Transit plan
- Thread starter SimonP
- Start date
LAz
Active Member
You see, aiming for the bottom is better than aiming for long term strategic growth. What you want is something of the past. Since the 1980s Toronto has set precedent for the future, where subway expansion is not necessary. Therefore we must do all that we can in order to appease the car, or in other words to take rapid out of transit. This is why we must do all we can to eliminate the best possible solution. Afterall, the apples at the bottom of the barrel are more sweeter than the ones at the top, don't you remember that?
Sarcasm aside, I do not understand why in the hell would someone dig such a long tunnel without making it a subway from the getgo. I think that the reason why is because people are scared of extra capacity. I mean dude, what on earth would we do with extra capacity!!?!
I told a number of people about the 13 km tram tunnel who do not know much about toronto. They all think that it is a stupid thing. And yet some fools actually support it. This is so mind-boggling to me...
If I was pro-car I would support trams more than anything. The reason why is because this would only put subways behind big time. What's the logic here - delaying the construction of real rapid transit, aka a real alternative to the car. Why ride a quick subway on sheppard when one can go at a snail's pace in a tram? It's clear, the car lobby wants trams, because a comprehensive subway plan would devastate the car. Something must be done, so there is an analysis of the alternatives. The cheaper alternative is chosen, and more importantly, the alternative that harms cars less is chosen, that alternative is the low capacity slow moving tram.
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Second_in_pie
Senior Member
I told a number of people in Toronto that live here about a 13 km tram tunnel and LRT lines on Eglinton, and they all thought it was a stupid thing! Nowhere else in the world would this happen.
LAz
Active Member
I told my professors in Chicago. Their answer was that this is not a well thought out plan.
The costs of constructing a tunnel so long as so large, that it just does not make sense to kill that extra capacity. It would be like getting a lot of money to buy a package of potatoes. The patatoes are of the asme type, but one bag is smaller, the other bigger, and they cost the same. Same price, different quantities, and we take the lower one instead of the bag that is a few times bigger.
The problem here is democracy. People are allowing these bandits to waste our money.
What is more frightening is this dumbed down population. Why do I say that - because there are no protests. Where are the riled up people? They probably are not even informed or are under what gramsci called hegemony - brainwashed to beleive that the interests of those at the top are good for the interests of us at the bottom.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
I think some of that has to do with the fact that many {if not most} Torontonians believe neither will be built. Every election the mayor and council say that they will expand the subways and nothing ever happens. They figure this is just another example of that. Expectations are now so low that doing nothing doesn't even faze them.
The TTC is trying to turn lemons into lemonade but it won't work, people still want a gin & tonic.
The TTC is trying to turn lemons into lemonade but it won't work, people still want a gin & tonic.
kettal
Banned
As mentioned in another thread... the day Eglinton sees 200k riders, replacing EC-LRT will be the least of our concerns. Yonge & Spadina subways would both crush under such added pressure.
Dan416
Senior Member
That is a good point that it's a 13 km long TUNNEL. That's pretty long, especially compared to Sheppard. I know I keep flip-flopping on this. Some days I'm fine with it. Others I'm not so sure. That's why Eglinton isn't the most dangerous transit project right now. It's Sheppard East LRT and the SRT replacement. Those are the ones that threaten to screw transit in Toronto for decades to come.
kettal
Banned
The fact that the opinion changes like the wind just indicates that our reasoning here is more emotional than rational. That goes for pretty much everyone who gets into these debates, both sides of the aisle.
SlickFranky
Active Member
EnviroTO
Senior Member
I agree that there are many people who are not regular transit riders who fall into this category. I know a number of people who live outside the old city of Toronto who feel that traffic is getting worse, transit is a way of solving the problem, and they can't imagine that they would be the ones to actually use it since they live in suburban homes and don't work in the cores. They support spending money on subways, and aren't happy with the idea of surface LRT, because it effects their car based lifestyle.
nfitz
Superstar
Building a Sheppard East LRT will screw transit in Toronto for decades to come?
What a completely bizarre statement. I fail to see how this would be worse than keeping the bus service, and should be a significant improvement.
I really don't see the need for these completely hysterical posts.
Fresh Start
Banned
The 6 kilometres east of Don Mills and 750 metres west of Weston Road isn't much more of a line. Argubly enforcing transfer points between bus and T1 subway train at Mount Dennis and OSC would be far better value for money because as kettal put it, anything generating usage of less than 4000pph isn't worthy of the high expense of railed transit, of any kind.
fanoftoronto
Active Member
Few points, the ridership increase is for a complete crosstown subway, so no transfer. Also, the speed of the tunnelled sections won't increase but the surface sections would. From 24 in the east and 29 in the west. Finally, subways just attract more people. If it was a competition for a person coming south to transfer on an Eglinton LRT or Bloor subway, they would choose the subway. But, if there was an Eglinton subway, there is more incentive for users.
Finally, I would just point out that you have been touting the ridership estimates that the TTC has been showing as the complete truth for any mode. But this is not the case, the document proves it. Subways will have higher ridership than LRT for the same corridor. So your argument that an Eglinton subway makes no sense because the demand is 5400, is not valid since there is 20 kilometres of surface LRT in Eglinton that will attract more users if it was a subway.
Let the planners show us numbers a complete subway on Eglinton and then I will accept any argument that you give.
EnviroTO
Senior Member
He is comparing the Sheppard East LRT not to existing buses but some belief that there was bound to be a subway extension in the next 20 years. I think even he is aware that the LRT eliminates the immediate need for a subway extension by handling the capacity requirements adequately, and that if at some point the future a subway is warranted the existing LRT would not be an impediment (i.e. he said decades to come, not centuries).
kettal
Banned
I'd love to see the quote where "kettal put it" anything like that.