SmartTrack (Proposed)

[micheal_can]

The short distance fares need to be more reasonable. Taking the train to Oshawa for $12 is reasonable. Taking it to Agincourt for $6 is not.

They have to charge higher than a TTC fare within the 416.

I’d say having the GO fare cover for the TTC fare will be good. Whether it include fare-by-distance or not, $5.30 is a good fare when it comes to ST.

What the TTC should really do is simply make each mode a higher fare. So,, for example, have bus at $2, Streetcar at $3, Subway at $4 and Smart Track at $5

Or have fare zones within Toronto. Each fare zone could be a former city.

Either way, higher order transit should cost more to the user.

 

[kEiThZ]

What the TTC should really do is simply make each mode a higher fare. So,, for example, have bus at $2, Streetcar at $3, Subway at $4 and Smart Track at $5

Or have fare zones within Toronto. Each fare zone could be a former city.

Either way, higher order transit should cost more to the user.

Sort of agree. But it's really hard to implement this in real life. The only place you can really have controlled tap on/tap off is at stations.

This is why I've argued that a flat fare for buses and streetcars and some kind of fare by distance for subways, and GO Trains, with differentials for transfer.

What we need to price in here is not so much distance traveled but speed. I ain't really care if someone rides a bus for 3 hrs across Toronto. What we need are people to pay for getting from Scarborough or Etobicoke to Union in 40 mins.

 

[facepalming_brooklynite]

What the TTC should really do is simply make each mode a higher fare. So,, for example, have bus at $2, Streetcar at $3, Subway at $4 and Smart Track at $5

Or have fare zones within Toronto. Each fare zone could be a former city.

Either way, higher order transit should cost more to the user.

Sorry, but that is crazy.

In an efficient system (as they exist in many Asian and European cities), all modes cost the same in order to encourage transit users to take the mode of transportation that is the most efficient for their trip. Why give people an incentive to take a slower, inefficient route?

For example, if a GO train from Kipling to Union cost the same as the subway ride, more people would choose a quicker commute, and this time saving would have an economic benefit for society as a whole. With RER you want to get as many people as possible onto the trains and off other systems.

Or have fare zones within Toronto. Each fare zone could be a former city.

Or keep the current TTC network as one zone, but apply this to GO as well. The only reasonable way to integrate GO into the TTC network is to have fare by distance where all rides within the city cost the same, no matter which modes are being used.

I feel all of the GTA transit planners should take a field trip to Tokyo or Berlin to see how transit is organized there. Maybe then they'd stop trying to invent new schemes from scratch.

 

[dowlingm]

Pushing people onto the trains by equalizing the fares makes sense when there is capacity to do so. It’s going to be interesting to see what happens with GO if in a fare equalization scenario outbound trains were slammed (equal access to a seat) and what effect that has on 905 riders not used to standing on a regular basis. Just look at some of the capacity effects UPX has seen since Metrolinx opted against time of day or directional fares.

 

[hw621]

Pushing people onto the trains by equalizing the fares makes sense when there is capacity to do so. It’s going to be interesting to see what happens with GO if in a fare equalization scenario outbound trains were slammed (equal access to a seat) and what effect that has on 905 riders not used to standing on a regular basis. Just look at some of the capacity effects UPX has seen since Metrolinx opted against time of day or directional fares.

Passengers on the Stouffville Line are standing regularly during rush hour.

 

[ssiguy2]

What the TTC should really do is simply make each mode a higher fare. So,, for example, have bus at $2, Streetcar at $3, Subway at $4 and Smart Track at $5

This is exactly what SHOULDN'T be done. Nothing will bring rapid transit expansion to a screeching halt faster than by making people pay more for it. Instead of people demanding rapid transit people would be demanding it be stopped. They would quite rightly think that they will be forced to spend more to go the same distance. They would also see it as a subsidy for the better off at the cost of lower income people..............better transit for those who can afford it and worse transit by a reduction in current bus service to those who can't.

 

[micheal_can]

This is exactly what SHOULDN'T be done. Nothing will bring rapid transit expansion to a screeching halt faster than by making people pay more for it. Instead of people demanding rapid transit people would be demanding it be stopped. They would quite rightly think that they will be forced to spend more to go the same distance. They would also see it as a subsidy for the better off at the cost of lower income people..............better transit for those who can afford it and worse transit by a reduction in current bus service to those who can't.

So then keep increasing fares to the point they are too expensive for the average worker?

 

[Disparishun]

They have to charge higher than a TTC fare within the 416.

Sorry, but that is crazy.

In an efficient system (as they exist in many Asian and European cities), all modes cost the same in order to encourage transit users to take the mode of transportation that is the most efficient for their trip. Why give people an incentive to take a slower, inefficient route?

For example, if a GO train from Kipling to Union cost the same as the subway ride, more people would choose a quicker commute, and this time saving would have an economic benefit for society as a whole. With RER you want to get as many people as possible onto the trains and off other systems.

Exactly. Equalize fares. Let people choose the mode of transit that makes the most sense to them. Continue to invest in the modes that most meet people's needs -- if it's GO RER, add more trains and cars there, etc.

Pushing people onto the trains by equalizing the fares makes sense when there is capacity to do so. It’s going to be interesting to see what happens with GO if in a fare equalization scenario outbound trains were slammed (equal access to a seat) and what effect that has on 905 riders not used to standing on a regular basis.

Are there any GO routes on which 905 riders are not used to standing on a regular basis -- at least during rush hour? They get pretty crowded. I know that when I used to commute on the Barrie Line between Union and Rutherford, I always stood, never sat.

Regardless, though, I don't see successful attraction of riders as the biggest problem here. Add trains if necessary, add cars if necessary. Subways are already massively overcrowded. Shifting those crowds to GO trains by means of equalized fares would help everyone.

They would quite rightly think that they will be forced to spend more to go the same distance. They would also see it as a subsidy for the better off at the cost of lower income people..............better transit for those who can afford it and worse transit by a reduction in current bus service to those who can't.

Agree for the same reasons. Let people pick the mode that makes the most sense. Incent the transit providers to provide the modes that deliver the most people as efficiently as possible. Fare pricing in that scenario is something that's going to be debated -- I think mode-agnostic fare by distance is the way to go in the long-term, and incent job creation in jobless areas through means other than transit pricing -- but any scheme being debated has to ensure it's all priced fairly and accessibly for everyone, rather than rise to the highest common denominator (GO train pricing).

 

[dowlingm]

Passengers on the Stouffville Line are standing regularly during rush hour.

Indeed, but they have been told by the province "just you wait, we're doing lots of double tracking and we're going to run more trains". If that capacity is immediately filled, it may be tears before bedtime for inner 905 MPPs.

 

[facepalming_brooklynite]

Passengers on the Stouffville Line are standing regularly during rush hour.

Indeed, but they have been told by the province "just you wait, we're doing lots of double tracking and we're going to run more trains". If that capacity is immediately filled, it may be tears before bedtime for inner 905 MPPs.

So the solution has to be to continue with increasing the capacity, not to keep a lid on improvements to the network.

 

[hw621]

Indeed, but they have been told by the province "just you wait, we're doing lots of double tracking and we're going to run more trains". If that capacity is immediately filled, it may be tears before bedtime for inner 905 MPPs.

I never sit on my pm train anyways. If there are more frequent trains than half an hour and get me home faster, I will take it.

 

[ssiguy2]

Charging different fares for different technologies is also a horrid waste of both physical and human resources.

You can clearly see this with GO today where there is all day each way service on the Lakeshore line and yet ridership is only just keeping up with population growth despite frequency improvements. In the middle of the day you can still get full Bloor and Yonge lines but the GO trains go by with hardly anyone in them all because people can't afford GO which is charges more due to being a different technology...ie commuter rail. If people had the choice of GO for the same fare many buses could be short-turned. Right now many buses do nothing more than collect passengers and drop them off a long ways away to the nearest subway station but if GO was an option many of those riders would get off there so half could turn back and half continue on. The Finch LRT is a great example of people getting to the subway.

 

[hw621]

Charging different fares for different technologies is also a horrid waste of both physical and human resources.

You can clearly see this with GO today where there is all day each way service on the Lakeshore line and yet ridership is only just keeping up with population growth despite frequency improvements. In the middle of the day you can still get full Bloor and Yonge lines but the GO trains go by with hardly anyone in them all because people can't afford GO which is charges more due to being a different technology...ie commuter rail. If people had the choice of GO for the same fare many buses could be short-turned. Right now many buses do nothing more than collect passengers and drop them off a long ways away to the nearest subway station but if GO was an option many of those riders would get off there so half could turn back and half continue on. The Finch LRT is a great example of people getting to the subway.

GO can totally use off peak fare to increase ridership for day time trains. Most of the day time trains are running empty anyways. It will rake in some extra revenue.

 

[PMT]

From toronto.com:

Scarborough residents criticize SmartTrack plan at public meeting

 

[hw621]

From toronto.com:

Scarborough residents criticize SmartTrack plan at public meeting

I really don't like the comments targeting 905 commuters. Just consider the express trains provincially funded GO RER.