SmartTrack (Proposed)

[Rainforest]

What ToAreaFan misses is that the feds take in too much money for their narrow mandate, so they have to spend the money. They have a crucial role to play in investment in virtually everything in Canada. Ontario spend money on defence? Yeah that's a great comparison. Zing.

Both the feds and the province have exactly as much money as what they are willing to take from the taxpayers.

It is psychologically easier to split the transit bills three-way (municipal, province, feds) that two-way (municipal and province). Taking into account the present transit deficit, I welcome federal contributions.

But if all governments functioned on a totally rational basis (no psychology involved), then one could make a case that two-way funding is easier to manage (province raises its tax rate by 0.3% or whatever is needed, and feds cut their rate accordingly).

 

[Rainforest]

Anyway, the silver lining is that Toronto likely gets a federal contribution towards its downtown-bound transit. If Harper wins, then Tory will get up to $3 billion.

If Trudeau or Mulclair win, it will be difficult for them not to contribute a similar amount. They might chose DRL over SmartTrack, that's not bad at all (perhaps even better).

 

[Rainforest]

Real concern: if Tory does actually get $8 or $9 billion for SmartTrack, will he use them wisely?

Previously, my expectation was that SmartTrack will mostly piggy-back on provincial GO RER, with perhaps $500 million of extra municipal funding, and $300 million federal aid, and the extras will be used to add some infill stations and buy more trains.

In that case, the surface option would be appropriate for the investment made, leaving the downtown tunnel for Phase II.

But if Phase I really gets as much as $ 9 billion, it will be hard to justify spending so much and not building the downtown rail tunnel.

 

[nfitz]

The Conservatives certainly have upped the ante,and one would hope the other parties step up. However neither the Liberals, or even the NDP, have a great track record in this area. Well, the NDP have no track record at all federally, but given how aligned the federal and provincial wings are of that party, and how limited the provincial NDP transit platform was, I must conclude that the best vote for Transit in Toronto is to vote for Harper.

Personaly though, I will not be choosing our federal government primarily on this criteria. I might vote for my local councillor based them having the trains run on time - but I'm not going to vote for a national leader on that basis!

 

[TOareaFan]

What ToAreaFan misses is that the feds take in too much money for their narrow mandate, so they have to spend the money. They have a crucial role to play in investment in virtually everything in Canada. Ontario spend money on defence? Yeah that's a great comparison. Zing.

I would disagree that the federal government (whatever party is running it) has a narrow mandate....if they are collecting too much they could always reduce the amount of money they are taking.

Zing or not, it was meant to point out that it is obvious that the Provincial Government of Ontario spends more on transit projects in Ontario than the Federal Government of Canada does....that is the way our system is designed.....and if the spokesperson for Ontario is going to point out that his government is spending more on a provincial area of responsibility than the feds are....I want to know how much the government of Ontario is spending on things that are the responsibility of the Federal government.....otherwise his tweet/communication is just useless partisanship.

 

[Amare]

Here's an image I found from Transport Canada (although outdated) of transit funding from the Feds between 2008-2011. Obviously this just gives one small part of the big picture, but take what you will from this graph. What's incredulous is that without stimulus funding, the Feds only contribute roughly $1 billion/year on transit across the entire country. Split that across the country and Toronto is lucky to see $300 million. This ~$300 million is the only stable form of money we know we will get each and every year from the Feds.

Any additional money that comes from the Feds only come during election campaigns/promises, or whenever they feel like propping themselves up. Whether its this Smarttrack promise, or the Scarborough subway (a promise during the municipal campaign), or the Spadina subway (a deal between the Province/Feds to help each other during upcoming elections), or Acceleride as Harper still likes to call it (to secure Brampton votes). The problem with this government is that they don't commit to stable funds on anything, let alone transit. That's why we always hear criticism coming from everywhere telling them to come up with a National Plan for Housing, Transit, or whatever else they dont fund unless they feel like it.

 

[ssiguy2]

This is vote buying 101 but one can say that the federal contribution to ST has been secured.

If Harper gets re-elected, Toronto {eventually} will get the money promised and if the NDP forms government they will NEVER dare back down on a transit commitment no matter who made it.

 

[TOareaFan]

This is vote buying 101 but one can say that the federal contribution to ST has been secured.

If Harper gets re-elected, Toronto {eventually} will get the money promised and if the NDP forms government they will NEVER dare back down on a transit commitment no matter who made it.

I thought I read on one of those elevator news feeds today that the NDP (and the Liberals) have already said they would not honour this commitment if they were to form the government.

 

[wopchop]

I thought I read on one of those elevator news feeds today that the NDP (and the Liberals) have already said they would not honour this commitment if they were to form the government.

Not exactly true (see link, from Toronto Star). Their actual position, while not fully revealed, seem to be that the funding wouldn't be tied to SmartTrack specifically, but whatever the municipality wants to spend it on.

Liberal MP Adam Vaughan said he expects his party will reveal municipal funding promises “in a matter of days” including billions of dollars in new ongoing, predictable funding for infrastructure including transit.

But it will be up to Ontario and Toronto council, not the Liberals, to decide which projects get Canada’s biggest city’s share of the money, he said.

“If the city is pushing SmartTrack, then SmartTrack it is — cities will be full partners ...,” the Trinity-Spadina MP said. “I don’t know how the Prime Minister can choose SmartTrack without an application or process.”

The NDP says Toronto could fund SmartTrack from its new national infrastructure fund, that will grow to $3.7 billion per year by the end of a first term, or a separate transit fund that will grow to $1.3 billion per year.

But how much Toronto gets will depend on funding formula negotiations to give all municipalities “dedicated, predictable,” transit funding, said Matthew Kellway, NDP MP for Beaches-East York.

“Our (annual) funding is more than what Conservatives are promising so I don’t know how the Prime Minister makes a $2.6 billion commitment from a fund that is $1 billion across the country,” Kellway said.

“We are going to stop politicizing transit and if Ontario and Toronto decide SmartTrack is a priority for their dedicated, predictable funding, they can make that decision,” he said.

 

[salsa]

As I go to read the G&M, something apropos pops up:

Mr. Tory said he wants his proposed SmartTrack line to be in place within seven years. Ottawa says the money will come from a new Public Transit Fund announced in the budget, but that fund is based on financing projects over 20 to 30 years which makes it unclear how long it would take for the city to get the promised cash.

A spokesperson for Finance Minister Joe Oliver, who is responsible for the new fund, said Friday that the amount would be transferred “over a long period of time, to be negotiated with the City of Toronto.” The full details of the new plan won’t be announced until the fall.

Fortunately, I know a way to make the money come faster.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The thing is SmartTrack needs a lot of money NOW, not 10 or 20 years from now. Who will step up to the plate?

 

[rbt]

So in 7 years 2022 will there be $2.6B? in the fund?

I don't want to get political (because I believe all parties at all levels do this)....last year was an election year in Ontario and we weren't so critical of the sudden announcements of 15 minute RER all over the GTHA and HSR to KW and the expenditure of $29B of unidentified money.....that was my point.

I give a little leeway to random election promises when there is a change in leadership, particularaly when the new leaders make promises in areas they have significant knowledge of.

Harper has had many many years to take action. To still be at the far future promise stage is disapointing. There were numerous projects which could have been funded and built during his time as PM.

 

[TOareaFan]

I give a little leeway to random election promises when there is a change in leadership, particularaly when the new leaders make promises in areas they have significant knowledge of.

Harper has had many many years to take action. To still be at the far future promise stage is disapointing. There were numerous projects which could have been funded and built during his time as PM.

And as Nfitz pointed out (a poster that is, IMO, far from being a Harperite) many that were funded.

 

[Rainforest]

Not exactly true (see link, from Toronto Star). Their actual position, while not fully revealed, seem to be that the funding wouldn't be tied to SmartTrack specifically, but whatever the municipality wants to spend it on.

So, both Liberals and NDP, while are not giving a firm promise, are likely to support Toronto's downtown-bound transit plans.

 

[rbt]

And as Nfitz pointed out (a poster that is, IMO, far from being a Harperite) many that were funded.

Yes, and many did not receive federal funding. Opportunities were available which were not taken.

Frankly federal funding often complicates projects (spadina's delayed start, technology specific bus purchase funds, etc.). Better for Toronto if they weren't involved and instead supported the city taxing itself, but the federal conservatives were against that option too.