SmartTrack (Proposed)

[TOareaFan]

If we built the new Smarttrack stations to GO standards, they would be 12 car lengths long.

I think having a 12 car length (max) single level train would be much better than a shorter bi level for load times.

I would be surprised that a 12 car single level train running at 6 minute (Smarttrack will have less than 15 minute frequencies during rush hour) frequencies would ever fill up beyond capacity.

We have the platform space at Union and the current stations, lets utilize it.

What I don't understand is if they are going to be 12 car long platforms anyway, why would they restrict capacity by only using single level cars?

 

[robmausser]

I don't get this notion being presented that SmartTrack will use different vehicles from GO RER. If you look at all the recent Metrolinx documents, all the mention of it has been in terms of maintain a certain amount of service levels, a certain amount of stations, and integration of fares between go and and TTC. This is what the city requested from Metrolinx to add to the GO RER program in terms of SmartTrack:

- A service frequency better than 15 minutes
• All-stop service in both directions
• Accelerated electrification of the entire SmartTrack line
• Transit service integration
• Integrated fares between GO Transit and TTC
• Seven additional stations on Stouffville/Lakeshore East GO corridors
• Four additional stations on the Kitchener GO corridor (including Mt Dennis, which is currently
planned)

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pd..._BoardMtg_Regional_Express_Rail_Update_EN.pdf

- All of these elements can be added without having different trains and branding. It will just be a confusing mess which will confuse the public.

I dont think anyone is saying there will be different vehicles for Smarttrack than GO RER.

There will however be different vehicles for Smarttrack/GO RER and the trains that operate on the rest of the GO network.

GO RER will NOT go outside of the 905 within the current plans of Metrolinx.

I think you will see one kind of train for GO RER/Smarttrack, and probably the Bi-levels we use now, whether being pulled by a diesel or electric locomotive, for the Kitchener/Niagara Falls/Barrie/Stouffville stations that are outside of the GTA/905.

 

[robmausser]

What I don't understand is if they are going to be 12 car long platforms anyway, why would they restrict capacity by only using single level cars?

You would NEVER see a bilevel EMU for the Smarttrack system 12 car lengths long. The demand simply isnt there for it in Toronto.

Smarttrack is touted as being 15 minutes or LESS, which even on off-peak is double the frequency of the Lakeshore Line.

So you are essentially shuttling the same capacity of one lakeshore line train. One Single level train twice as often = one current bilevel train.

During rush hour you would see even greater frequency, say every 7 minutes. That is now 4 times the capacity of a current bilevel.

BUT, we aren't done yet. Because Smarttrack will only be for the inner 905 of the GTA. There will still be express bilevel trains taking people out of Union etc.

So you will have less people who are trying to get out of the GTA riding on trains destined for the downtown stations, like they currently are.

Considering that the projected demand for the DRL is 1/4 of the Yonge Line, and that is run with smaller 6 car subway trains (although at capacity at rush hour and every 2 minute frequencies) I just don't think the demand is there for anything more than a 12 car single level EMU on the Smarttrack line.

 

[mdrejhon]

I dont think anyone is saying there will be different vehicles for Smarttrack than GO RER.

There will however be different vehicles for Smarttrack/GO RER and the trains that operate on the rest of the GO network.

GO RER will NOT go outside of the 905 within the current plans of Metrolinx.

I think you will see one kind of train for GO RER/Smarttrack, and probably the Bi-levels we use now, whether being pulled by a diesel or electric locomotive, for the Kitchener/Niagara Falls/Barrie/Stouffville stations that are outside of the GTA/905.

I expect that they will (eventually) discontinue the old Bombardier bilevels at the SmartTrack stations, to ensure that the Bombardier bilevels can go express to Unionville/Brampton, and speed up the Kitchener/Stoufville service in the SmartTrack era. The Georgetown corridor now has space for these express routes, but some areas beyond will need to be expanded, then I'd expect this would be the Metrolinx plan by the 2030s or so.

It's possible they will keep the Bombardier bilevels for a very long time, but will be reallocated away from local/416 stations over the long term, with EMU RER between Oakville-Pickering, and Brampton-Unionville, and bombardier bilevels going express to the 905 stations (either diesel or electric locomotives). This is likely to happen if they convert 416 GO stations to high platforms, and keep 905 stations low platforms.

If corridor capacity is a problem and they cannot easily widen for express trains, and when the bilevels wear out (gradual phase out of the oldest coaches within twenty years), they may run SmartTrack trains for the entire Stoufville line, short-turning every other train at Unionville (30min all day service), for more frequent service, corridor efficiency and operational efficiency, while keeping fewer peak period express bilevel trains. But that is a big if, if the economics work out better that way. Not at first, but eventually.

Regarding platform length, that greatly depends on whether they go with low or high platforms. It is worth mentioning The Great Platform Height Debate. If they use high platforms, SmartTrack may use approx 150 meter platforms, possibly with bilevel EMUs (similar to Sydney's hybrid subway/commuter train system). They would have to do some creativity with existing GO stations. Currently UPX is high platform, and tomorrow's high speed train are all high platforms (e.g. Metrolinx operates a GO HSR Kitchener in the 2030s, as HSR is currently an Ontario mandate and might fall under the Metrolinx umbrella), boarding times are faster and accessibility is better, so we will have to see what Metrolinx decides.

If Metrolinx uses low platform EMUs, designing the new platforms for (future) 300 meter single levels is probably quite realistic since the existing GO platforms are easily reused. However, I now peg this as only 50-50 chance they will stick to low level for SmartTrack. It also takes a full 3 to 4 minutes to walk the length of a 300 meter platform, which slows station entry/exit greatly, affecting the attractiveness of the service. It's no fun exiting certain stations like Long Branch during the middle of the winter, if the exit is a 3 minute walk away at the opposite end of the center platform, during -20C freezing weather! 150 meter trains will be much more popular for high-frequency subway-convenience service, the shorter platform length saves more time than the bilevels-versus-singlelevels, especially with level boarding. Given the choice, I greatly prefer 150 meter level-boarding accessible bilevels, over 300 meter low-level boarding single-levels. Similiar capacity, but faster boarding AND potentially faster station entry/exit (especially at single-exit stations).

You may very well be right, but I'm hedging my bets.

Considering that the projected demand for the DRL is 1/4 of the Yonge Line, and that is run with smaller 6 car subway trains (although at capacity at rush hour and every 2 minute frequencies) I just don't think the demand is there for anything more than a 12 car single level EMU on the Smarttrack line.

But, alas, the fly in the ointment is that RER trains (SmartTrack) MAY also eventually replace the local/416 sections of Kitchener-Stoufville GO service. Peak-period Kitchener GOtrains are among the most crowded GOtrains on the network, and we have to factor this this in. So ADD local GO traffic above and beyond DRL traffic. Also, there is also the potential additional traffic Eglinton Crosstown LRT will add to GO (including SmartTrack) as there will be greatly improved TTC-Metrolinx interchange stations going along with SmartTrack.

Now, it gets more complicated. Once they try pushing frequencies to 7 minutes or less, classic GOtrains might no longer stop at RER/SmartTrack stations, for operational efficiency sake. There may be no operationally efficient way to quickly run both EMU RER/SmartTrack trains and classic locomotive driven GO trains with short headways at the same track due to performance differences. They may run local/express where corridor space allows. Georgetown corridor space could handle it, but Stoufville Line will need a good expansion to support local/express separation.

From day one (with ECLRT finished) the smaller SmartTrack trains will probably quickly become crowded at peak periods, even if mostly empty offpeak. Eventually within a number of years, there will be pressure to increase operational efficiencies, shorten headways to as little as 3-4 minutes within a couple decades, and that's only doable by expunging the Bombardier bilevels from the specific track SmartTrack/RER runs on, confining it to a separate express track for the purpose of bringing in 905 service beyond the SmartTrack endpoints (using Eglinton/Union/Unionville as interchanges between the 416/905 GOtrain services). 3-minute subway style headways may only happen when the underground corridor gets built through downtown ("Metrolinx 2031"), as the USRC will have a hard time supporting such short headways, but on a 25-year-plan, is not altogether unrealistic, given Paris' ability to run RER with 3-minute headways.

 

[Duck]

yep....from his number of posts, I am guessing that Duck is fairly new here....so probably (as we all do ocassionally) lacks any desire to go back through pages of posts...so I was just bringing forward the most recent RER stuff....I get a sense, that Duck is gonna be a fairly valuable and thoughtful poster so there is value in bringing him current.

Thank you kindly; I hadn't seen either of those documents. Cheers!

 

[ssiguy2]

Yeah - that's what we've been discussing the last few pages. Personally I don't see any difference between "GO RER" and "SmartTrack". Sounds like the same thing - high-frequency electrified commuter rail.

There is one VERY big difference between the two..........SmartTracks will be part of the standard TTC system, no extra fare. I think GO RER will have the standard type of fare that GO has now, one based on distance travelled.

As far as the bi-levels go I see no reason to get rid of them and think they are idea for longer haul commutes ie Barrie where the stops are few and far between and dwell times really don't matter because 95% of all the users will be getting off at union. They are ideal for the classic rush-hour commuter rails system. For GO RER I'm not really sure. I think it will depend on the number of stations and the lines. The more the stations the more cumbersome and slow they become and have diminishing returns.

As far as stations go I cannot in my wildest dreams ever imagine needing stations longer than 12 cars even in a hundred years.

 

[ehlow]

Yeah - that's what we've been discussing the last few pages. Personally I don't see any difference between "GO RER" and "SmartTrack". Sounds like the same thing - high-frequency electrified commuter rail.

The main thing is that they're now looking at fare-integration and adding additional stops. This is stated in the SmartTrack part of the Metrolinx RER presentations, but yes, it's part & dependant on of the overall RER program.

 

[Platform 27]

The main thing is that they're now looking at fare-integration and adding additional stops. This is stated in the SmartTrack part of the Metrolinx RER presentations, but yes, it's part & dependant on of the overall RER program.

They were already looking at fare integration and additional stations before SmartTrack officially became a thing. Glen Murray spoke about it when he was minister. And this Metrolinx presentation from September 2014 (big PDF) mentions infill stations and aligning with fare integration.

 

[robmausser]

I expect that they will (eventually) discontinue the old Bombardier bilevels at the SmartTrack stations, to ensure that the Bombardier bilevels can go express to Unionville/Brampton, and speed up the Kitchener/Stoufville service in the SmartTrack era. The Georgetown corridor now has space for these express routes, but some areas beyond will need to be expanded, then I'd expect this would be the Metrolinx plan by the 2030s or so.

It's possible they will keep the Bombardier bilevels for a very long time, but will be reallocated away from local/416 stations over the long term, with EMU RER between Oakville-Pickering, and Brampton-Unionville, and bombardier bilevels going express to the 905 stations (either diesel or electric locomotives). This is likely to happen if they convert 416 GO stations to high platforms, and keep 905 stations low platforms.

If corridor capacity is a problem and they cannot easily widen for express trains, and when the bilevels wear out (gradual phase out of the oldest coaches within twenty years), they may run SmartTrack trains for the entire Stoufville line, short-turning every other train at Unionville (30min all day service), for more frequent service, corridor efficiency and operational efficiency, while keeping fewer peak period express bilevel trains. But that is a big if, if the economics work out better that way. Not at first, but eventually.

Regarding platform length, that greatly depends on whether they go with low or high platforms. It is worth mentioning The Great Platform Height Debate. If they use high platforms, SmartTrack may use approx 150 meter platforms, possibly with bilevel EMUs (similar to Sydney's hybrid subway/commuter train system). They would have to do some creativity with existing GO stations. Currently UPX is high platform, and tomorrow's high speed train are all high platforms (e.g. Metrolinx operates a GO HSR Kitchener in the 2030s, as HSR is currently an Ontario mandate and might fall under the Metrolinx umbrella), boarding times are faster and accessibility is better, so we will have to see what Metrolinx decides.

If Metrolinx uses low platform EMUs, designing the new platforms for (future) 300 meter single levels is probably quite realistic since the existing GO platforms are easily reused. However, I now peg this as only 50-50 chance they will stick to low level for SmartTrack. It also takes a full 3 to 4 minutes to walk the length of a 300 meter platform, which slows station entry/exit greatly, affecting the attractiveness of the service. It's no fun exiting certain stations like Long Branch during the middle of the winter, if the exit is a 3 minute walk away at the opposite end of the center platform, during -20C freezing weather! 150 meter trains will be much more popular for high-frequency subway-convenience service, the shorter platform length saves more time than the bilevels-versus-singlelevels, especially with level boarding. Given the choice, I greatly prefer 150 meter level-boarding accessible bilevels, over 300 meter low-level boarding single-levels. Similiar capacity, but faster boarding AND potentially faster station entry/exit (especially at single-exit stations).

You may very well be right, but I'm hedging my bets.


But, alas, the fly in the ointment is that RER trains (SmartTrack) MAY also eventually replace the local/416 sections of Kitchener-Stoufville GO service. Peak-period Kitchener GOtrains are among the most crowded GOtrains on the network, and we have to factor this this in. So ADD local GO traffic above and beyond DRL traffic. Also, there is also the potential additional traffic Eglinton Crosstown LRT will add to GO (including SmartTrack) as there will be greatly improved TTC-Metrolinx interchange stations going along with SmartTrack.

Now, it gets more complicated. Once they try pushing frequencies to 7 minutes or less, classic GOtrains might no longer stop at RER/SmartTrack stations, for operational efficiency sake. There may be no operationally efficient way to quickly run both EMU RER/SmartTrack trains and classic locomotive driven GO trains with short headways at the same track due to performance differences. They may run local/express where corridor space allows. Georgetown corridor space could handle it, but Stoufville Line will need a good expansion to support local/express separation.

From day one (with ECLRT finished) the smaller SmartTrack trains will probably quickly become crowded at peak periods, even if mostly empty offpeak. Eventually within a number of years, there will be pressure to increase operational efficiencies, shorten headways to as little as 3-4 minutes within a couple decades, and that's only doable by expunging the Bombardier bilevels from the specific track SmartTrack/RER runs on, confining it to a separate express track for the purpose of bringing in 905 service beyond the SmartTrack endpoints (using Eglinton/Union/Unionville as interchanges between the 416/905 GOtrain services). 3-minute subway style headways may only happen when the underground corridor gets built through downtown ("Metrolinx 2031"), as the USRC will have a hard time supporting such short headways, but on a 25-year-plan, is not altogether unrealistic, given Paris' ability to run RER with 3-minute headways.

Sorry I was't clear: I fully expect the GO bilevels to not stop at RER/Smarttrack stations once RER/Smarttrack is in place.

I agree completely with them used entirely as express trains that don't stop in the 416.

Union -> Unionville making all stops to Lincolnville
Union -> Mount Pleasant making all stops to Kitchener

and so forth.

This STILL will take demand off of the RER/Smarttrack lines, because remember: a lot of the people taking up seats in the 416 on the bilevels arent getting off in the 416 currently, they continue on to the 905/out of the GTA. But they still take up seats.

RER/Smarttrack has to look at only what people take the GO train currently at the inner stations, which is not much to be honest. Something like 90% of GO ridership stays on the train until the 905/Outer GTA.

So 90% of the demand on RER/Smarttrack will be whatever usage will be predicted when new stations are added, all day service is added, and when people can pay a $3 TTC fare and use it.

So very little of the current GO train usage will affect RER/Smarttrack, it will be mostly new usage, NOT new ridership compounded onto current ridership.

 

[TOareaFan]

^I would imagine that stops and vehicle choices would have to be tailored to the line.

using

Union -> Mount Pleasant making all stops to Kitchener

those trains will be bypassing, at least, the two busiest stations on the line....perhaps 3 or 4. Mt. Pleasant is growing and will continue to grow but beyond it I am not sure there is (or will be) enough customers to justify too many runs by too many trains of the current 10 car bi-level variety currently running on the line.

 

[innsertnamehere]

At the same time the trip from Kitchener is over 2 hours today, and an express train running from Mt. Pleasant means that the trip could be significantly shorter.

 

[TOareaFan]

At the same time the trip from Kitchener is over 2 hours today, and an express train running from Mt. Pleasant means that the trip could be significantly shorter.

sure...that is a given.....but how many 10 car bi-level trains will be needed to satisfy the demand if they are bypassing the busiest stations? Point is, it would seem to me there would need to be some "customization" by line to get the most efficient use of the resources.

 

[nfitz]

At the same time the trip from Kitchener is over 2 hours today, and an express train running from Mt. Pleasant means that the trip could be significantly shorter.

Via Rail does it in 100 minutes and still stops at Brampton and Malton. They've had it as low as 91 minutes before construction (and stops at Malton) started.

 

[robmausser]

sure...that is a given.....but how many 10 car bi-level trains will be needed to satisfy the demand if they are bypassing the busiest stations? Point is, it would seem to me there would need to be some "customization" by line to get the most efficient use of the resources.

They are actually 12 car bi-levels now.

Customization is possible with the bi-levels. You can also run then with more locomotives more often and with less coaches attached.

Like they do with SunRail

 

[TOareaFan]

They are actually 12 car bi-levels now.

Not on the line we were discussing....10 car units still used.