SmartTrack (Proposed)

[gweed123]

Perhaps you are unaware, but the Eglinton Crosstown, Sheppard and Finch LRTs are not being built by the TTC but by Metrolinx. The TTC has nothing to do with them at all. They will simply be running the operations of them in terms of ticket booth, operators, drivers etc. The trains, infrastructure and construction is all owned by Metrolinx.

Same would go for Smarttrack/GO RER. It would be built/funded etc by Metrolinx, and would probably be run by GO transit with some sort of partnership with the TTC to allow crossover Presto use by someone who is travelling on the TTC.

Remember, by the time Smarttrack/GO RER is complete, there will no longer be "TTC metropasses, TTC tokens" etc. It will all be PRESTO.

All that will happen is if you paid for a TTC fare already (were already on a subway etc) you would tap your PRESTO card and not be billed for taking Smarttrack/GO RER. It would be considered a free transfer.

Same if you started on Smarttrack/GO RER and transfered to TTC.

If you took the GO system beyond the limit of Smarttrack (transfered to a GO train and kept going to say... Brampton) when you got off the GO train you would tap your PRESTO and be billed for the change in zones.

TransitPolicyChanger already substantially covered the point that I was going to make. But yes, the key difference between the projects that you mention (Eglinton, Sheppard, and Finch LRTs) and SmartTrack is that the former do not share any trackage with any other services. Metrolinx would be operating it in relative isolation.

SmartTrack trains, on the other hand, would need to be slotted in between GO RER trains on incredibly busy rail corridors. Georgetown South especially, which will be seeing trains every couple of minutes or less during peak periods. That kind of coordination would be very difficult to pull off with 2 agencies operating frequencies like that on the same corridor, using the same station infrastructure. It would be far easier for Metrolinx/GO to own and operate both services, and be able to scale the frequencies and work out the schedules in a holistic way. It also allows both services to use the same rolling stock and maintenance facilities.

 

[robmausser]

TransitPolicyChanger already substantially covered the point that I was going to make. But yes, the key difference between the projects that you mention (Eglinton, Sheppard, and Finch LRTs) and SmartTrack is that the former do not share any trackage with any other services. Metrolinx would be operating it in relative isolation.

SmartTrack trains, on the other hand, would need to be slotted in between GO RER trains on incredibly busy rail corridors. Georgetown South especially, which will be seeing trains every couple of minutes or less during peak periods. That kind of coordination would be very difficult to pull off with 2 agencies operating frequencies like that on the same corridor, using the same station infrastructure. It would be far easier for Metrolinx/GO to own and operate both services, and be able to scale the frequencies and work out the schedules in a holistic way. It also allows both services to use the same rolling stock and maintenance facilities.

You think that Smarttrack trains will be different than GO RER trains? Thats cute.

I have news for you, Smarttrack is getting absorbed into GO RER. Look at any of the recent Metrolinx reports.

Smarttrack is just a terminology for ensuring that GO RER meets certian guidlelines set by Toronto (first the mayor and now the council)

Those guidlelines are:

-Less than 15 minute frequency
-More stations downtown
-Starting with the Kitchener/Stouffville corridors
-TTC fare to ride in the area zoned as Smarttack
-An Englinton Spur (pending engineering assessment saying its possible)

There is nothing to indicate Smarttrack will have its own trains, and every evidence points to the amalgamation of Smarttrack and GO RER into one service/one train.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Perhaps you are unaware, but the Eglinton Crosstown, Sheppard and Finch LRTs are not being built by the TTC but by Metrolinx. The TTC has nothing to do with them at all. They will simply be running the operations of them in terms of ticket booth, operators, drivers etc. The trains, infrastructure and construction is all owned by Metrolinx.

Same would go for Smarttrack/GO RER. It would be built/funded etc by Metrolinx, and would probably be run by GO transit with some sort of partnership with the TTC to allow crossover Presto use by someone who is travelling on the TTC.

Remember, by the time Smarttrack/GO RER is complete, there will no longer be "TTC metropasses, TTC tokens" etc. It will all be PRESTO.

All that will happen is if you paid for a TTC fare already (were already on a subway etc) you would tap your PRESTO card and not be billed for taking Smarttrack/GO RER. It would be considered a free transfer.

Same if you started on Smarttrack/GO RER and transfered to TTC.

If you took the GO system beyond the limit of Smarttrack (transfered to a GO train and kept going to say... Brampton) when you got off the GO train you would tap your PRESTO and be billed for the change in zones.

The Metrolinx RER presentations have said that they'd be running SmartTrack, iirc.

 

[mdrejhon]

SmartTrack trains, on the other hand, would need to be slotted in between GO RER trains on incredibly busy rail corridors. Georgetown South especially, which will be seeing trains every couple of minutes or less during peak periods. That kind of coordination would be very difficult to pull off with 2 agencies operating frequencies like that on the same corridor

This is true.

However, it's already now confirmed by these Metrolinx documents: March 3rd Board Meeting and City of Toronto Work Plan that SmartTrack is going to be operated by Metrolinx, and that SmartTrack is a GO RER train under a different brand name.

They will almost certainly use the same trainsets for both GO RER / SmartTrack for this specific section (aka GeorgeTown corridor). It will be simpler if they eliminate the Elginton corridor, so they can operate SmartTrack as the Brampton-to-Unionville GO RER train. And when the whole lines are electricified, they can short-turn some of them, so that some service continues onwards to Kitchener/Stoufville. Or they can short-turn at Mt. Dennis, sending alternate trains down Eglinton and down to Kitchener. They do have plans to electricify all the way to Kitchener eventually, after all.

Paris runs RER trains (of Metrolinxs' "RER" acronym inspiration) with as little as 3-minute headways on the same track, so the precedent isn't out of line. The Georgetown Corridor now has room for 8 tracks (up from originally only 3 track!) in the southmost part (before the Barrie/Milton split), 6 tracks (up from originally 2 or 3) after the Barrie forks off, and 4 tracks after Milton forks off (up from originally 1 or 2 in some sections) and through the old West Toronto Diamond area, all the way to near Pearson. They haven't even fully tracked out the Georgetown corridor yet, and they haven't yet resignalled the USRC yet. Once it's all tracked out and resignalled, there's definitely enough capacity to handle SmartTrack "for now". That's only when Georgetown Corridor is fully tracked out, and after they expand the Stoufville corridor to Unionville. For shorter headways (e.g. SmartTrack GO RER every 5 minutes or more frequent), they may have to eventually add underground tracks to Union Station ('Metrolinx 2031') to shorten headways on the USRC.

The trainsets for SmartTrack will (defacto forced, by virtue of being the GO RER) to be larger than many people think. It's going to be sized to accomodate high-frequency commuter service, and will be at least as large as subway trains or larger. It's definitely not going to be UPX-sized trainsets or tram-sized trainsets.

 

[gweed123]

You think that Smarttrack trains will be different than GO RER trains? Thats cute.

Where did I say they would be different trains? All I said is they would be different services.

I have news for you, Smarttrack is getting absorbed into GO RER. Look at any of the recent Metrolinx reports.

I know SmartTrack will be absorbed into GO RER, that's the point I've been making for months now! SmartTrack will simply become the Toronto-centric GO RER service, which will be layered over top of the 905-centric GO RER service.

Smarttrack is just a terminology for ensuring that GO RER meets certian guidlelines set by Toronto (first the mayor and now the council)

No, SmartTrack is just an election transit platform that Tory's team concocted to make it look like he had something unique to offer. It's a rebranding of an already-in-motion plan.

There is nothing to indicate Smarttrack will have its own trains, and every evidence points to the amalgamation of Smarttrack and GO RER into one service/one train.

I agree with you. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, because your last sentence pretty much re-confirmed everything I've been saying for a while now. The only point we differ on is the existence of layered service.

 

[mdrejhon]

I agree with you. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, because your last sentence pretty much re-confirmed everything I've been saying for a while now. The only point we differ on is the existence of layered service.

It would have been layered service anyway.
Much like Lakeshore West express / Lakeshore allstops.

Initially, they'd probably run 15 minutes, to leave some capacity room for the 905 services to intersperse in between. This would not be too much more logistically challenging than Lakeshore West which has 6 outgoing trains over a 45 minute period (5:00-5:45pm) and GO is already running fairly tight headways with the bilevels on the Lakeshore West corridor during peak period. And USRC has not yet been resignalled.

Also, it will evolve over time. Once the whole corridor is electricified to Kitchener, they don't necessarily need bilevels anymore to Kitchener (except maybe a few during peak) since frequent Kitchener service would be able to absorb the capacity. They could use the same trainsets for the Kitchener/Stoufville corridor. So the short-turn technique can be used like they already do for one Oakville GOtrain during peak period. They can run SmartTrack trains with possibly as little as 7 minute headways, short-turning some trains at Eglinton corridor (sending every other train 15 mins to Brampton), and short-turning some trains at Brampton (sending every other train yet again, 30 mins to Kitchener). Once the corridor is properly set up with sufficient signalling for tight headways, I don't see anything preventing such layering. Likewise for Unionville/Stoufville -- short-turning every other "SmartTrack" GO RER train at Unionville. And in a couple decades, they can even double it all again (3min/7min/15min versus 7min/15min/30min) once they have the underground USRC corridor ("Metrolinx 2031"). If money was available. The corridor capacity is not remotely nearly fully milked yet.

I think it is a logistical "Service Concept" (to borrow Metrolinx's term) refinement to design a service that fits the corridor capacity, signal capacity, and all. It'll be a very Metrolinx service concept, that reasonably 'fits' the Tory vision.

That said, I do have mixed feelings about the Eglinton corridor (...although if money were later found -- say in a decade or two -- in a way that voters reasonably accept, the Eglinton corridor might make sense extended as an underground corridor through under Square One and then connecting to Milton line beyond). Tory might as well compromise, towards the original GO RER terminus of Brampton -- send SmartTrack to Brampton instead -- and save some money to spend on extending ECLRT to Square One, with Mt. Dennis being the major multimodal interchange between SmartTrack/UPX/ECLRT/buses.

 

[Adjei]

You think that Smarttrack trains will be different than GO RER trains? Thats cute.

I have news for you, Smarttrack is getting absorbed into GO RER. Look at any of the recent Metrolinx reports.

Smarttrack is just a terminology for ensuring that GO RER meets certian guidlelines set by Toronto (first the mayor and now the council)

Those guidlelines are:

-Less than 15 minute frequency
-More stations downtown
-Starting with the Kitchener/Stouffville corridors
-TTC fare to ride in the area zoned as Smarttack
-An Englinton Spur (pending engineering assessment saying its possible)

There is nothing to indicate Smarttrack will have its own trains, and every evidence points to the amalgamation of Smarttrack and GO RER into one service/one train.

Exactly I don' tknow why people try to insist otherwise that you will have seperate GO RER trains and SmartTrack trains. Go look at the recent Metrolinx reports from their board meetings. They consider SmartTrack as basically being able to meet certain conditions within the GO RER project that they are working on. The only reason why Toronto is even involved to such an extent is that they will be providing some of the funding for it.

 

[gweed123]

Very good points mdrejhon. Personally, what I think will happen is this:

Phase 1: We will see a hybrid version of GO RER and SmartTrack. That is to say, service from Bramalea to Unionville and Oakville to Pickering via Union using GO RER trains. The remainder of the GO routes will continue to use diesel bi-levels, including a semi-express service for the outer portions of the Lakeshore, Kitchener, and Stouffville lines.

Phase 2: Electrification out to Hamilton, Mount Pleasant, Mount Joy, and Bowmanville respectively. Electrification of the entire Milton line and the Barrie line to East Gwillimbury. Introduction of Toronto-specific GO RER service to overlay over top of 905-centric service.

Phase 3: Toronto-specific GO RER service routed through newly constructed Central Tunnel, opening up capacity at Union for an expansion of 905-centric services. Richmond Hill line north of Lawrence electrified and connected to an East York Tunnel, which would connect to the Central Tunnel (in essence, a DRL route with an additional stop northward at Lawrence).

 

[animatronic]

Reference Number 324644
Solicitation Number 9118-15-7099
Organization Name City of Toronto
Source ID PU.MU.ON.542969.C58822

Support for SmartTrack: Eglinton Avenue West Corridor Feasibility Study

The purpose of this RFP is to select a qualified consultant for the purposes of carrying out significant technical work in support of the SmartTrack: Eglinton Avenue West Corridor Feasibility Study, a component of the overall SmartTrack review work plan being undertaken by the City, Metrolinx and the TTC. A joint program committee has been established by all three parties to provide oversight.

Please visit http://www.toronto.ca/tenders/index.htm for additional information.

MERX asks that you contact the buying agency directly to obtain associated documents. The contact information can be found within the notice abstract

 

[salsa]

Reference Number 324644
Solicitation Number 9118-15-7099
Organization Name City of Toronto
Source ID PU.MU.ON.542969.C58822

Support for SmartTrack: Eglinton Avenue West Corridor Feasibility Study

The purpose of this RFP is to select a qualified consultant for the purposes of carrying out significant technical work in support of the SmartTrack: Eglinton Avenue West Corridor Feasibility Study, a component of the overall SmartTrack review work plan being undertaken by the City, Metrolinx and the TTC. A joint program committee has been established by all three parties to provide oversight.

Please visit http://www.toronto.ca/tenders/index.htm for additional information.

MERX asks that you contact the buying agency directly to obtain associated documents. The contact information can be found within the notice abstract

Must be great to be a consultant in Toronto these days, getting paid big bucks every year to study harebrained nonsense like this. Executive summary: ya it's not gonna work.

 

[robmausser]

Must be great to be a consultant in Toronto these days, getting paid big bucks every year to study harebrained nonsense like this. Executive summary: ya it's not gonna work.

The entire report for the Eglinton Spur is just one page, size 300 type:

NO

 

[BurlOak]

Must be great to be a consultant in Toronto these days, getting paid big bucks every year to study harebrained nonsense like this. Executive summary: ya it's not gonna work.

I don't know. Pay a consultant enough and they will give you what you want. They will even recommend an on street LRT on Jane south of Eglinton, and south of DVP to Pape. They might even give you on street LRT between Laird and Don't Mills and LRT with transfers in all directions at Kennedy.
I am convinced anything is possible.

 

[gweed123]

If this study were set up to be actually legit, they would be studying and weighing 4 options for the Eglinton West corridor:

1) SmartTrack extension
2) At-grade LRT
3) Grade-separated LRT
4) BRT extension of the Mississauga Transitway (to also be used by TTC buses)

That's the only way you can get a holistic view of what is actually appropriate for that corridor.

 

[robmausser]

If this study were set up to be actually legit, they would be studying and weighing 4 options for the Eglinton West corridor:

1) SmartTrack extension
2) At-grade LRT
3) Grade-separated LRT
4) BRT extension of the Mississauga Transitway (to also be used by TTC buses)

That's the only way you can get a holistic view of what is actually appropriate for that corridor.

Does grade separated mean elevated? Or just beside the road rather than in the middle (which is the dumbest thing ever I should add, and should not have happened for the eastern portion of the Eglinton LRT)

 

[gweed123]

Does grade separated mean elevated? Or just beside the road rather than in the middle (which is the dumbest thing ever I should add, and should not have happened for the eastern portion of the Eglinton LRT)

Could be elevated, could be in a trench like portions of the Mississauga Transitway. The study would presumably look at a variety of grade separation design options. The same types of design options would presumably apply for SmartTrack as well (i.e. Do you go up? Or do you dig down?).