SmartTrack (Proposed)

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Very true. I suspect that it was dropped from Tory's SmartTrack plan in order to reduce the price tag. The tunnel will no doubt be a pretty considerable sum, and $8 billion (still not sure how he got to that number) is a pretty hefty price already.

And of course, SSRA was hired to do the planning for ST again (quelle surprise). In any case, the options through downtown is limited - GO/Metrolinx recognizes the capacity of Union is limited, and that tunnelling is one of two solutions. Might as well adopt that as the solution and morph ST into DRL in the core area in a way that is more friendly to the needs of the central city/shoulder (high-frequency, lower capacity - and I suspect there are benefits to be had running the line with EMUs, in terms of scaling the infrastructure and than say adopting say double-decker electric trains). In that case, it would practically be a subway line by default.

As to the price tag, I am sure the city and province/Metrolinx (and even the Feds) can sort out the who pays what.

AoD

 

[gweed123]

And of course, SSRA was hired to do the planning for ST again (quelle surprise). In any case, the options through downtown is limited - GO/Metrolinx recognizes the capacity of Union is limited, and that tunnelling is one of two solutions. Might as well adopt that as the solution and morph ST into DRL in the core area in a way that is more friendly to the needs of the central city/shoulder (high-frequency, lower capacity - and I suspect there are benefits to be had running the line with EMUs, in terms of scaling the infrastructure and than say adopting say double-decker electric trains). In that case, it would practically be a subway line by default.

As to the price tag, I am sure the city and province/Metrolinx (and even the Feds) can sort of the who pays what.

AoD

Agreed. BART serves a very important function for Downtown San Francisco, despite primarily being a medium-to-long distance commuter network. The stop spacing for an RER DRL can be identical to most of the TTC subway proposals, since it will be using EMUs. As long as the stations are in the same locations and the trains through the tunnel run at basically the same frequencies as the TTC subway (which, given the fact that it will probably hold multiple overlapping routes, it will), it should make no difference to downtown and shoulder users whether it's a TTC subway or RER tunnel.

Agreed on the cost as well. I was just saying that in terms of Tory's election platform, a double digit billion dollar plan may not have gone over as well, even if the tunnel would have been good. It's far easier for him to 'agree' to it later ("I'm listening to the experts who say we need this"), than to propose it from the beginning. No doubt that if the RER DRL serves a regional purpose, that Metrolinx, the TTC, and the Feds can come to some kind of agreement on it.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Agreed. BART serves a very important function for Downtown San Francisco, despite primarily being a medium-to-long distance commuter network. The stop spacing for an RER DRL can be identical to most of the TTC subway proposals, since it will be using EMUs. As long as the stations are in the same locations and the trains through the tunnel run at basically the same frequencies as the TTC subway (which, given the fact that it will probably hold multiple overlapping routes, it will), it should make no difference to downtown and shoulder users whether it's a TTC subway or RER tunnel.

Agreed on the cost as well. I was just saying that in terms of Tory's election platform, a double digit billion dollar plan may not have gone over as well, even if the tunnel would have been good. It's far easier for him to 'agree' to it later ("I'm listening to the experts who say we need this"), than to propose it from the beginning. No doubt that if the RER DRL serves a regional purpose, that Metrolinx, the TTC, and the Feds can come to some kind of agreement on it.

What I am not quite sure about is how the 8B figure came about - it seemed awfully expensive if it was just a simple ground level scheme along existing ROWs (which is pretty much what it is, as proposed). That price tag is almost suggestive of the presence of an underground tunnel in the core.

One idea - if they should be building a tunnel in the core, they should make it double deck like City Loop in Melbourne to allow RER routes to be EMUed and "metro-fied" as demand increases)

AoD

 

[gweed123]

What I am not quite sure about is how the 8B figure came about - it seemed awfully expensive if it was just a simple ground level scheme along existing ROWs (which is pretty much what it is, as proposed). That price tag is almost suggestive of the presence of an underground tunnel in the core.

One idea - if they should be building a tunnel in the core, they should make it double deck like City Loop in Melbourne to allow RER routes to be EMUed and "metro-fied" as demand increases)

AoD

Agreed. I raised that same question during the campaign multiple times, and even tweeted Tory himself several times, and never got a response. Considering that most of SmartTrack is running along corridors that are Metrolinx-owned and are being electrified on Metrolinx' dime, I really have a hard time getting to $8 billion without including the Central Tunnel, as you mention.

Perhaps Tory is planning on pulling a bait and switch in order to ease the impact of the DRL price tag? What I mean by that is that once the DRTES comes back in and recommends the RER tunnel, Tory can say "Metrolinx has agreed to fully integrating SmartTrack into the GO RER scheme, and is assuming all operating costs and all capital costs associated with electrification. The $8 billion allotted for SmartTrack can now be diverted towards the Central Tunnel, at no extra cost to taxpayers."

Maybe I'm giving Tory too much credit, but I don't think he was being vague about the specifics of SmartTrack's cost breakdown during the election campaign because he pulled the number out of his rear. I think that number was a long-term play, in order to obtain the funding required and to avoid sticker shock for the people when the funding is re-directed. It's sad that transit planning politics has to come to something like that, but hey, if it works, I won't complain.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Agreed. I raised that same question during the campaign multiple times, and even tweeted Tory himself several times, and never got a response. Considering that most of SmartTrack is running along corridors that are Metrolinx-owned and are being electrified on Metrolinx' dime, I really have a hard time getting to $8 billion without including the Central Tunnel, as you mention.

Perhaps Tory is planning on pulling a bait and switch in order to ease the impact of the DRL price tag? What I mean by that is that once the DRTES comes back in and recommends the RER tunnel, Tory can say "Metrolinx has agreed to fully integrating SmartTrack into the GO RER scheme, and is assuming all operating costs and all capital costs associated with electrification. The $8 billion allotted for SmartTrack can now be diverted towards the Central Tunnel, at no extra cost to taxpayers."

I also found it rather interesting that the released SSRA "report" (reads more like an Exec Summary) clearly suggests that there is a BCA, but there are no dollar figures attached to it. Big hmm.

AoD

 

[gweed123]

I also found it rather interesting that the released SSRA "report" (reads more like an Exec Summary) clearly suggests that there is a BCA, but there are no dollar figures attached to it. Big hmm.

AoD

I didn't know that. Very interesting indeed. I can't remember off hand, but has there been any interaction between SSRA and Metrolinx with regards to the integration of SmartTrack and GO RER?

 

[EnviroTO]

What does elevating Eglinton east have to do with SmartTrack west?

I think he means agreeing to pay for a grade separated ECLRT west of Weston to the Renforth Gateway and airport.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I didn't know that. Very interesting indeed. I can't remember off hand, but has there been any interaction between SSRA and Metrolinx with regards to the integration of SmartTrack and GO RER?

One can do better - from Steve Munro's blog:

Paragraph 2.b refers to an organization, SRRA, which has been involved in proposals that evolved into SmartTrack before. Iain Dobson, a member of the Metrolinx Board, is listed as a co-founder of SRRA in his bio on their website. He is also listed as a member of the Advisory Board to the University of Toronto Transportation Research Institute.

http://stevemunro.ca/?p=10479

I think I might move this extended convo re ST to the ST thread.

AoD

 

[nfitz]

I think he means agreeing to pay for a grade separated ECLRT west of Weston to the Renforth Gateway and airport.

Why would you elevate a piece with such low predicted ridership? Parts of that are less than 1,000 per hour during AM peak.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Agreed. I raised that same question during the campaign multiple times, and even tweeted Tory himself several times, and never got a response. Considering that most of SmartTrack is running along corridors that are Metrolinx-owned and are being electrified on Metrolinx' dime, I really have a hard time getting to $8 billion without including the Central Tunnel, as you mention.

Even with the central tunnel, $8 Billion seems like a stretch. What downtown configuration could cost anywhere near that? That's almost the price of the Dundas West to Don Mills Relief Line.

 

[BurlOak]

Why would you elevate a piece with such low predicted ridership? Parts of that are less than 1,000 per hour during AM peak.

Does spending $0.5B to elevate the line to prevent $2B (?) from being spent on an underground SmartTrack count as a good use of money?

It will be interesting to so how accurate that 1000 number is when the SmartTrack is studied. I imagine that Tory would have not proposed ST unless a reasonable number of people would be going towards the Airport centre. Maybe the numbers were low when it was planned as a slow, on-street LRT with midblock stops, but would be quite a bit higher if it provided a rapid connection.

 

[gweed123]

Even with the central tunnel, $8 Billion seems like a stretch. What downtown configuration could cost anywhere near that? That's almost the price of the Dundas West to Don Mills Relief Line.

I'd imagine the Eglinton West spur is responsible for a pretty good chunk of that. But yes, say $6B for the Central Tunnel and $2B for Eglinton West.

One can do better - from Steve Munro's blog:

http://stevemunro.ca/?p=10479

Wowwww.

I think I might move this extended convo re ST to the ST thread.

AoD

Go for it. It is a bit of a side track.

 

[44 North]

Re: the discussion of SmartTrack costs from the SRT thread:
With all the new grade-separations, bridge-widening, corridor widening, noise walls, twenty-something stations (many of which would require elevators on either side), not to mention a grade-separate Eglinton West portion...I think $8bn or $150M/km seems about right for a ballparked SmartTrack.

For comparison, here’s an image of the TTC’s DRTES Lakeshore RT line, with a rough breakdown of infrastructure type. It would have six new stations, one short tunnel, and also cost $8bn (2012). I haven’t done the math, but costs seem fairly in line with SmartTrack.

*It’s also interesting to note all the sections deemed “elevatedâ€. I doubt these refer to concrete viaducts. Rather, a fortification and filling-in/squaring of the existing earthen embankments. Considering all the fill needed, this would probably be more expensive than many imagine - and may even be on par with a conventional guideway structure in terms of per km costs.

But I do agree that there’s more going on behind closed doors than meets the eye, and that we should be reading between the lines instead of taking statements at face value. I still have a bit of a theory that Tory and the Libs hatched a plan to never build the Scarb Subway at all. And seeing that SmartTrack has a “surface subway†moniker (and travels through the same area), no one can accuse them of reneging or breaking a promise. Scarborough gets its subway with ST, with the bonus being that the several $Billion of funding is already in place.

A new part of this theory is that with the E/W section of the SRT corridor becoming available with the line's closure, and with STC consequently being underserved by higher-order transit, we may see another push for a Sheppard East Subway extension. Or at the very least preliminary Prov promises while the SELRT has its plug pulled.

 

[MrsNesbitt]

Does spending $0.5B to elevate the line to prevent $2B (?) from being spent on an underground SmartTrack count as a good use of money?

It will be interesting to so how accurate that 1000 number is when the SmartTrack is studied. I imagine that Tory would have not proposed ST unless a reasonable number of people would be going towards the Airport centre. Maybe the numbers were low when it was planned as a slow, on-street LRT with midblock stops, but would be quite a bit higher if it provided a rapid connection.

I think really that Tory proposed SmartTrack for two reasons:

1. Vote-buying in Scarborough and Etobicoke, which were Ford strongholds;

2. Capitalizing on the already-existing plans to use existing heavy-rail corridors for rapid transit by basically proclaiming the GO RER plan as his own, just with an Eglinton spur to please Etobicoke more (see Point 1).

In either event, I still think that a Crosstown extension west to the airport / the Renforth hub is worth doing. There are a huge number of jobs in that direction and further into Mississauga, and ridership would only grow as RER on the Kitchener Line (call it SmartTrack if you wish) feeds commuters from other parts of the city into the line at what we can hope will be a Mt. Dennis interchange station.

The $0.5 billion is worth spending anyways, and only moreso if it keeps heavy rail in the existing corridor where it belongs.

 

[salsa]

Does spending $0.5B to elevate the line to prevent $2B (?) from being spent on an underground SmartTrack count as a good use of money?

Does proceeding with the already approved at-grade LRT for much cheaper, along a corridor with very low projected ridership count as an even better use of money?