SmartTrack (Proposed)

[ssiguy2]

Vancouver is holding a transit referendum this March but I'm not sure if it's going to pass.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

What is the referendum for, specifically.

 

[innsertnamehere]

raise taxes for transit funding

 

[BurlOak]

How so? The referendum would be put in place by the existing Parliament, or in a municipalities place, by it's council. That's not equivalent to a referendum on secession at all.

We did have a referendum in 2007 on Ontario electoral reform. The parliament of the day set it up. If it passed, the new government was to pass the new law. It didn't, so nothing changed.

It's not like some thirty party would hold a referendum, and then expect the government to fall-in-line.

If the parliament of the day set up the rules of a referendum, then the next parliament could just as easily pass a law that ignores the previous law.

 

[BurlOak]

We might not need one.

Some councillors are echoing the statements here that the Eglinton portion of Smarttrack should be LRT

https://nowtoronto.com/news/city-hall/john-tory's-smarttrack-under-fire/

If these Councillor have any intelligence at all, they would compromise and propose a grade-separated LRT to replace SmartTrack West. They have to throw Tory a bone if they want this to have any chance of succeeding. It could be promoted that the grade-separated LRT with provide fast, reliable service very similar to what SmartTrack would have done.
If they promote a return to the previous on-street LRT, that will simply just add to delays - both cost and time - and ensure that nothing will be done.

 

[wopchop]

If the parliament of the day set up the rules of a referendum, then the next parliament could just as easily pass a law that ignores the previous law.

And what's your point? That doesn't make the referendum any less binding. The law would still be passed.

I don't see that as a very good argument, as you could say the same thing about almost any law that a Parliament passes. Why pass any Act at all, as the next Parliament could simply repeal it? Welcome to the parliamentary system.

Lawmakers can also introduce timeframes into the bills. A good example are the provincial plebiscites for banning liquor right before the 1920s. If passed (and they did pass), they could not be challenged for a few years (I can't remember the exact timeframe).

 

[crs1026]

The way the upcoming review by the City is set up, It should not be too difficult to give Tory a face-saving way to move off the Eglinton leg. The review of the Proposal for the rest of the line will be enormously favourable, which will allow Tory to take credit for being so visionary and cost conscious. (pause while tongue is adjusted within cheek)

Some new or changed facts can be 'discovered' to explain why the Eglinton leg is not as desirable as might have appeared in 2014. Backtracking on this topic is probably a lot less salient to voters than bactracking on, say, ttc fares or taxes.....and I doubt that very few voters actually are counting on this particular 'promise'. One has to remember that either LRT or ST on this segment will create future payoff, rather than solving a crisis that people are screaming about today.

- Paul

 

[diminutive]

How so? The referendum would be put in place by the existing Parliament, or in a municipalities place, by it's council. That's not equivalent to a referendum on secession at all.

Because the Legislature never has to listen to a referendum result, even a referendum it organized through law. If QP set up a referendum, and there was 100% turnout and everyone voted one way, QP could always just ignore the result for any reason it wanted. So, in a legal sense, it's not binding.

It's kind of like the fixed election date laws in Ottawa, Parliament can't bind itself to do anything through legislation. Even the same Parliament.

 

[wopchop]

Because the Legislature never has to listen to a referendum result, even a referendum it organized through law. If QP set up a referendum, and there was 100% turnout and everyone voted one way, QP could always just ignore the result for any reason it wanted. So, in a legal sense, it's not binding.

It's kind of like the fixed election date laws in Ottawa, Parliament can't bind itself to do anything through legislation. Even the same Parliament.

Looks like you're right, according to Elections Canada, they are only binding in British Columbia, Alberta, and Saskatchewan;

In a majority of Canadian jurisdictions, the results of referendums are consultative in nature only. However, in Alberta, British Columbia and Saskatchewan, the results may be binding on the government under specific conditions. In Alberta, the results of a referendum pertaining to the Constitution of Canada are binding on the Legislative Assembly if the majority of ballots cast vote the way on the question stated. In British Columbia, a referendum under the Referendum Act or the Constitutional Amendment Approval Act is binding if more than 50 percent of electors vote one way on a given question. However, the results of a referendum called under either the British Columbia or Alberta Election Act are not binding. In Saskatchewan, the Lieutenant Governor in Council may choose at the time of proclamation whether or not the referendum results will be binding on the government. Where it is determined that the outcome will be binding, the government must adopt the results if more than 60 percent of ballots cast vote the same way, and if at least 50 percent of electors who are entitled to vote actually cast a ballot. It should be noted that when the results of a referendum held anywhere in Canada are deemed to be binding, they are only binding on the government that initiated the referendum.

Still, it might not be politically wise to call a referendum, and then ignore the results.

 

[dunkalunk]

Is the SmartTrack alignment being duplicative of the the existing Bloor-Danforth subway alignment between Main and Kennedy a valid concern? I've been toying with the idea of converting the existing B-D alignment east of Victoria Park to SmartTrack and extending the alignment to terminate at STC.

I'm not sure it would be worth the effort to convert the right-of-way; there's likely no reasonable way around duplicating stations, but I also see the ability to expand track capacity on the Lakshore Line to handle all-day RER, SmartTrack, Rush-Hour commuter service, and long-haul VIA/HSR as being a serious hurdles for the success of both/either GO RER/SmartTrack.

 

[WislaHD]

Is the SmartTrack alignment being duplicative of the the existing Bloor-Danforth subway alignment between Main and Kennedy a valid concern? I've been toying with the idea of converting the existing B-D alignment east of Victoria Park to SmartTrack and extending the alignment to terminate at STC.

Its been discussed in the Scarborough thread recently

I definitely agree it is worthy of discussion.

 

[dunkalunk]

Not quite the same thing.

I'm specifically talking about building a tunnel to connect the the Lakshore Line near Danforth GO station to Victoria Park Station and converting the existing Bloor-Danforth alignment between Victoria Park and Kennedy to a standard gauge heavy rail line with metro-type spacing and frequency using high-floor catenary/third rail hydbrid vehicles. So, basically Smarttrack running on the B-D and SRT alignments to STC.

Suffice it to say, probably not worth the money in the short or medium term.

 

[mdrejhon]

but I also see the ability to expand track capacity on the Lakshore Line to handle all-day RER, SmartTrack, Rush-Hour commuter service, and long-haul VIA/HSR as being a serious hurdles for the success of both/either GO RER/SmartTrack.

The capacity isn't a problem (at least before 2031) if you consider:

- SmartTrack is a GO RER route that will likely replace many GOTrains on the urban part of Kingston-Stoufville lines.
- They can also cancel the Eglinton spur, and then SmartTrack becomes a true "original route" GO RER. Or in theory, they could send "every other train" beyond down to Kingston, and down Eglinton spur. (e.g. SmartTrackized GO RER branches apart at Dennis every other train and eventually extends to Brampton and Kingston as electricification extends to Kingston)
- In theory, they can permanently terminate diesel Kingston GOtrains at the SmartTrack terminus (except during peak), requiring a transfer between express electricified SmartTrack(GO RER) trains stopping at Dennis and diesel trains. Then you eliminate most track-sharing between diesel trains and electric trains, by requiring people to do a transfer at Dennis during offpeak. At least until electricification reaches the whole Kitchener/Stoufville lines.
- The new signalling system (and upgraded train traffic control centre) built in Union corridor, allowing much higher train throughput safely. This will happen before SmartTrack
- The same trainsets can be used for both SmartTrack and GO RER under same or different branding.
- By defacto, diesel GO trains will be extinct on the route that HSR takes. GO RER will be fully electricified to Kingston well before HSR, as a pre-requisite for HSR. That allows full termination of diesel gotrains, and using only SmartTrack GO RER trainsets to Kingston.
- HSR probably isn't going to be built before the four underground Lakeshore tracks (part of "Metrolinx 2031" proposal), allowing the frequent lakeshore service to continue unimpeded by the Georgetown corridor traffic.

For a 4-track corridor (which Georgetown corridor has capacity for now, including future provisions), Express trains and HSR can share two passthrough tracks, and all-stop trains can share the all-stop routing. In theory, by 2030-2040 UPX gets upgraded to higher-speed electric trainsets (~150+kph between stops), so that they can be safely slotted with occasional HSR in the express/passing tracks, and pass to the all-stop/station track before approaching the stations such as Mt. Dennis. Upgraded signalling, automatic train control, etc, can safely allow much tighter headways than currently done in Canada. Consider that past Pearson, HSR isn't going to be able to do 300kph, but more like 150-200kph, which is the same speed as many express electric MMU commuter trains in some countries. So in this case, HSR/UPX/express GO RER(ala express SmartTrack that bypasses stops), with proper selection of trainsets in the ~2030s, can all easily share the same 4-track corridor.

Certain countries do this all the time (sharing the same passthrough track for express commuter trains and for HSR trains) and we just need better signalling, automatic train control systems, proper selection of trainsets, and proper assignment of trains to the correct tracks. That said, I do not think HSR is coming before the introduction of additional underground tracks through downtown.

 

[BurlOak]

I thought U of T prof. Miller was supposed to complete some SmartTrack report in Feb. 2015. Does anyone know the timeframe for this?

 

[mdrejhon]

I was thinking how they would share the Georgetown corridor between all the planned services that run over it.

GO RER and HSR isn't mutually exclusive; Conceivable vision: As Georgetown corridor has room (or provisions thereof) for 4-tracks in the corridor perfect for track sharing of 2 express, 2 allstop, a service plan could be.

Pre-Electricification (2016ish)
- UPX (DMU) runs 15 mins. UPX uses express tracks between UPX stations.
- Regular GOtrains begin all day service (hourly) to some point beyond Pearson, occasionally using express tracks.
- Electricification may shut down a track at a time (3 track operations ala Lakeshore West)

Electricification to Pearson, SmartTrack starts (~2022)
- UPX (EMU) runs 15 mins. UPX uses express tracks between UPX stations.
- SmartTrack runs every 15mins (more often at peak), running only on the allstop track
- Diesel Kitchener GO trains runs during peak and occasionally through the day (e.g. every 2hr), going express Union-Pearson, utilizing the express track right after a UPX train passeses by.
- HSR approved, pre-construction prep begins

Electricification to Kitchener for GO RER and prep for HSR (2030)
- UPX (EMU) runs 15 mins, running on express track between the UPX stations
- SmartTrack (EMU) runs 15 mins or more frequent, running only on the allstop track
- Kitchener (electric locomotive) GOtrain existing bilevels pulled by electricity, for peak period and express-to-Dennis, using express track, run at full 150kph speed rating of bilevels. Ride to Kitchener falls to only 1.5 hours thanks to bette trackage and always going express (due to SmartTrack taking over urban commuter service).
- HSR under construction
- Any remaining 4-tracking and signal upgrades completed. Selective regrading (e.g. vertical curvatures tweaked), 3 tracks megaproject beyond Pearson (e.g. through Brampton)

HSR service begins (2035-2040)
- UPX (EMU) trainsets upgraded to faster 150-200kph+ trainsets to permit trackshare with HSR, continues to run 15-min service (or better), express track utilized.
- SmartTrack continues to run, stays on allstop track. SmartTrack extended to Brampton and/or Square One (Eglington spur). Signalling upgraded to permit 3-minute headways at peak.
- True HSR service begins. HSR would simultanously upgrade Kitchener commuter service; utilizing high speed commuter trains.
- Kitchener GO commuter service switched to 200kph HSR trainsets - at least high speed aerodynamic commuter EMU's for better tracksharing with HSR. Ontario HSR service would be almost de-facto handled by Metrolinx. Metrolinx GO HSR expresses (40min Kitchener-Union) and GO HSR commuter limited-stops (1h Kitchener-Union) making approximately five stops, with SmartTrack taking allstop service to Brampton on all infill stations.
- Speeds of high speed commuter trains would be the same as HSR trains, in the Georgetown corridor between Mt. Dennis and Union, approx 200kph in the straighter sections and less in the curves -- whatever Georgetown corridor speed limitations there are. 300kph service would only be for beyond approximately Brampton, when population density becomes sparse and the trackage was straight.

The endgame:
-- So we have allstop (SmartTrack) -- limited stop (GO HSR + UPX) -- express trains (GO HSR express).
-- And if Eglinton spur exists; every other train splits off on the Eglington spur. We get SmartTrack GO RER Mississauga, and every odd train SmartTrack GO RER Brampton. 7.5 minute service to Mt. Dennis, 15 minute along Eglinton Spur and 15 minute along Brampton spur.