SmartTrack (Proposed)

[nfitz]

Does spending $0.5B to elevate the line to prevent $2B (?) from being spent on an underground SmartTrack count as a good use of money?

In the analysis currently being undertaken on the Eglinton spur, I doubt that would be a factor.

And given we know the projected ridership is already very low on that corridor with several stations for LRT, we wouldn't think that the ridership for the shorter heavy-rail line with less stations would be much higher!

It's pretty clear reading between the lines of the studies and motions, that SmartTrack will be proceeding without the Eglinton segment. Perhaps the best that come out of it is a "deal" between City and Metrolinx to accelerate Phase 2 of the Eglinton line, while the city proceeds with pushing it's RER scheme towards northern Etobicoke along the existing rail line.

 

[BurlOak]

Does proceeding with the already approved at-grade LRT for much cheaper, along a corridor with very low projected ridership count as an even better use of money?

As Dirty Harry would say; "do you feel lucky".

There may be a 5% chance that the at-grade LRT will be approved (it would require Tory and a lot of other politicians and Councillors to eat crow, which is highly unlikely). There is a 50% (probably higher) chance that the elevated LRT would be approved. Even completely ignoring the transit benefits, is it worth such a huge risk to save comparatively little.

We made the same gamble in the East end (hoping beyond hope that the longshot Transit City plan would be accepted.), and to nobodies surprise, the subway came out on top and we lost the opportunity to save $1B.

 

[nfitz]

There may be a 5% chance that the at-grade LRT will be approved (it would require Tory and a lot of other politicians and Councillors to eat crow, which is highly unlikely). There is a 50% (probably higher) chance that the elevated LRT would be approved. Even completely ignoring the transit benefits, is it worth such a huge risk to save comparatively little.

This isn't Scarborough - ridership is closer to 1,000 than 10.000. The city has already approved at-grade LRT. The EA was completed. I don't see that it has to go to a vote.

 

[superman]

This isn't Scarborough - ridership is closer to 1,000 than 10.000. The city has already approved at-grade LRT. The EA was completed. I don't see that it has to go to a vote.

I would say if ridership is only 1,000 then we're better off with busses... what's the point of building excess infrastructure to serve such a low amount of short haul trips.

I could still see a reasoning for SmartTrack though acting as express rail from downtown to Mississauga / Airport for longer haul communters.

 

[nfitz]

I could still see a reasoning for SmartTrack though acting as express rail from downtown to Mississauga / Airport for longer haul communters.

That would require 10 km of rail in Mississauga from Renforth to Square One , in addition to the 9 km from Renforth to Mount Dennis. And running Express trains would be a challenge on a line designed for frequent stops. Instead of 19 km of rail, you'd be better with the 2.5 km spur off the Milton GO Train, that Metrolinx has already proposed.

 

[achender]

At the end of the Waterfront Toronto's February CEO Report there is mention of a WT proposal to add a Smart Track stop at Lower Sherbourne to serve the East Bay Front. Is this new? Seems a bit close to Union.

At a briefing with Mayor Tory and his staff, Management raised the idea of adding a SmartTrack stop at Lower Sherbourne Street to serve the EBF. Currently in the EBF, there are a number of existing and planned employment generating developments that will rely heavily on transit including:

• Corus Entertainment - existing – 500,000 sf of commercial
• George Brown College - existing – 330,000 sf of institutional
• George Brown College - future expansion planned – 225,000 sf of institutional
• Daniels Guvernment site - planned – 446,000 sf of commercial
• Waterfront Innovation Centre - planned – 350,000 sf of commercial
• Hines Bayside - planned – 500,000 sf of commercial

In addition, EBF will house over 6,000 residential units, 1,200 of which will be affordable rental. Collectively, there is sufficient critical mass to warrant a stop on the SmartTrack line at Lower Sherbourne Street.

 

[MrsNesbitt]

At the end of the Waterfront Toronto's February CEO Report there is mention of a WT proposal to add a Smart Track stop at Lower Sherbourne to serve the East Bay Front. Is this new? Seems a bit close to Union.

In classic Toronto fashion, let's satisfy transit needs in an area that will sorely need local transit with the least suitable mode possible.

RER / SmartTrack will benefit from a stop near the Distillery District or West Don Lands to hit the eastern edge of downtown. All of the new districts south of the Gardiner need a BRT or LRT on Queens Quay, which will do infinitely more for the people actually travelling along that corridor than a single regional express rail station will.

Anyone coming into downtown from elsewhere around the region working in the area (or going to school at George Brown etc.) will only be a short streetcar/LRT ride from Union away.

 

[salsa]

In classic Toronto fashion, let's satisfy transit needs in an area that will sorely need local transit with the least suitable mode possible.

RER / SmartTrack will benefit from a stop near the Distillery District or West Don Lands to hit the eastern edge of downtown. All of the new districts south of the Gardiner need a BRT or LRT on Queens Quay, which will do infinitely more for the people actually travelling along that corridor than a single regional express rail station will.

Anyone coming into downtown from elsewhere around the region working in the area (or going to school at George Brown etc.) will only be a short streetcar/LRT ride from Union away.

Who says the smart track station is intended to replace the proposed streetcar?

 

[MrsNesbitt]

Who says the smart track station is intended to replace the proposed streetcar?

Point. I suppose it depends on how finite the transit dollars to spend in a certain area are. If the choice is between significantly modifying RER/ST to reach the waterfront (especially if we eventually do get a downtown rail tunnel built) and an LRT or BRT on Queens Quay, then the latter is definitely preferable, however.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

At the end of the Waterfront Toronto's February CEO Report there is mention of a WT proposal to add a Smart Track stop at Lower Sherbourne to serve the East Bay Front. Is this new? Seems a bit close to Union.

Interestingly, the Sherbourne stop would be about the same distance from Union Station as the planned Smarttrack/RER Spadina stop. There is also land available to construct a station. With Metrolinx quoting stations at about $25 Million, this could be a great investment in the Waterfront. Heck, call the stop "Waterfront" as free advertising for Toronto's new blue edge.

 

[aquateam]

I would say if ridership is only 1,000 then we're better off with busses... what's the point of building excess infrastructure to serve such a low amount of short haul trips.

I could still see a reasoning for SmartTrack though acting as express rail from downtown to Mississauga / Airport for longer haul communters.

If ridership were actually 1,000 then I would agree with you.

In general, the Eglinton west extension of the LRT is a fairly obvious choice. The city owns a strip for addition of the ROW (no expropriations). It's at-grade so it should be cheap to construct. And it would connect to the Renforth Gateway (Terminus of the Missisauga Transitway) and to the airport. And with all the talk of "Transit First" for the waterfront, it would be nice to see transit oriented development in other parts of the city too.

One of the benefits of LRT, and especially in this context, is that there is a relatively low marginal cost for expansion.

 

[44 North]

At the end of the Waterfront Toronto's February CEO Report there is mention of a WT proposal to add a Smart Track stop at Lower Sherbourne to serve the East Bay Front. Is this new? Seems a bit close to Union.

Interesting. Good find. If I had to choose I'd say a station at Cherry makes more sense, because it then intercepts the streetcar - while also offering direct service to the West Don Lands, Lower Don Lands, Distillery District; and any future rides going to/from the Port Lands and Villiers Island. But a stop at Sherbourne in the East Bayfront would also be wise considering the potential for that area to be a destination of its own. It's a bit of a shame that the QQE streetcar has been downgraded to BRT, whereas other areas of the city/region have been upgraded to subway. Hopefully waterfront investment makes it back to the forefront.

 

[T-Bor]

...It's a bit of a shame that the QQE streetcar has been downgraded to BRT...

Did I take a nap? Is this official?

 

[innsertnamehere]

no it isn't. Both the city and Waterfront Toronto is still pushing for an LRT and the province seems interested in the project themselves. It'll probably happen fairly soon, if I had to hazard a guess as well.

 

[44 North]

Did I take a nap? Is this official?

Not "official" per se, but nobody has ponied up the money to fund streetcars in the East Bayfront - and BRT->LRT conversion was kept in mind during WTF planning. A key drawback of the streetcar plan, and why nobody wants to fund it, is the mammoth price tag of connecting to Union and to Cherry. Just under $0.5bn for a 2km line is quite a bit.