SmartTrack (Proposed)

[Rainforest]

Does smart track still use the same ttc fare. I know that was the pitch. But for years that part of the plan was never confirmed and almost brushed over. As of this year is their any current evidence which suggests that smart track will indeed be the same as ttc fare.

Not a slightest chance. They did not upgrade the rail corridors to handle the massive load that will come from within the 416 if the rail service becomes a part of TTC fare zone.

Missing that, GO trains would be filled with TTC riders, leaving no space for the suburban riders.

 

[sixrings]

Not a slightest chance. They did not upgrade the rail corridors to handle the massive load that will come from within the 416 if the rail service becomes a part of TTC fare zone.

Missing that, GO trains would be filled with TTC riders, leaving no space for the suburban riders.

That was always my thought about smart track but I am highly skeptical of any political promises.

 

[gibsonm]

Not a slightest chance. They did not upgrade the rail corridors to handle the massive load that will come from within the 416 if the rail service becomes a part of TTC fare zone.

Missing that, GO trains would be filled with TTC riders, leaving no space for the suburban riders.

Evidence?

 

[sixrings]

Evidence?

Where’s the evidence or funding to show it will? Are we just accepting political promises we like as truth while political promises we don’t like as lies.

 

[ARG1]

Where’s the evidence or funding to show it will? Are we just accepting political promises we like as truth while political promises we don’t like as lies.

The evidence is that without Fare Integration, GO RER is a pointless project, and Metrolinx knows that. What's the point in having a high frequency train line through the 416 if people can't transfer to the local services without paying $3. East Harbour GO is currently being built with 2 Island platforms where the GO train will have a cross platform connection with the Ontario Line, yet that can't happen if there isn't fare integration (imagine having fare gates in the middle of the platform). Metrolinx has outlined in many documents that the main driving force behind GO RER is to serve the more underserved communities, however this isn't possible if there isn't fare integration. Let me put this in another light, what's the point of having high frequency and high capacity rail corridors being upgraded and electrified with a ton of new station serving local communities, if there can't be fare integration to local transit services? These upgrades aren't happening due to the lack of capacity with the current system, they are being built to introduce new viable transit options to various different section of the 905 and 416 while strengthening regional connectivity, however this cannot be done if to use these corridors, you have to pay an additional $5+.

 

[sixrings]

The evidence is that without Fare Integration, GO RER is a pointless project, and Metrolinx knows that. What's the point in having a high frequency train line through the 416 if people can't transfer to the local services without paying $3. East Harbour GO is currently being built with 2 Island platforms where the GO train will have a cross platform connection with the Ontario Line, yet that can't happen if there isn't fare integration (imagine having fare gates in the middle of the platform). Metrolinx has outlined in many documents that the main driving force behind GO RER is to serve the more underserved communities, however this isn't possible if there isn't fare integration. Let me put this in another light, what's the point of having high frequency and high capacity rail corridors being upgraded and electrified with a ton of new station serving local communities, if there can't be fare integration to local transit services? These upgrades aren't happening due to the lack of capacity with the current system, they are being built to introduce new viable transit options to various different section of the 905 and 416 while strengthening regional connectivity, however this cannot be done if to use these corridors, you have to pay an additional $5+.

There’s already ttc express buses that need an extra fare. Why would some transit need an extra fare while others wouldn’t. As I said I’m skeptical in general of both parties promises because it’s so easy to delay things, blame changes on economy, or in other cases cancel things in order to start studying all over again. The fact that no one is out right shouting it from the roof tops that it’s all intergrated should be a huge red flag.

 

[robmausser]

Does smart track still use the same ttc fare. I know that was the pitch. But for years that part of the plan was never confirmed and almost brushed over. As of this year is their any current evidence which suggests that smart track will indeed be the same as ttc fare.

Thats complicated, because it depends on what you mean by the "same TTC fare"

By the time ST/RER is implemented, there will probably be a complete restructuring of fares by distance/zones etc on all levels of transit. Thats the end goal of using a smart card system like PRESTO.

So, will there be TTC fare? No. But thats because there will be no such thing as TTC fare. it will most likely be the same fare if you stay in your zone. Perhaps slightly more expensive like the TTC Express buses, it might be touted as an express service.

Its like asking if all horse drawn carriages in the future will use the same roadways. Yes, but they wont be drawn by horses at all. The term "TTC fare" was used to explain a future situation in the present language that people could understand.

 

[robmausser]

Not a slightest chance. They did not upgrade the rail corridors to handle the massive load that will come from within the 416 if the rail service becomes a part of TTC fare zone.

Missing that, GO trains would be filled with TTC riders, leaving no space for the suburban riders.

What do you mean? They are literally doubling tracks and adding more trackage along the RER sections as we speak, and the RER system will not use the same GO trains as present. The number of trains on the GO system is set to quadruple by the time RER is fully implemented.

So everything you are saying is basically incorrect. They are upgrading the rail corridors and adding more trains to deal with the anticipated demand from the GO-RER project, including the downtown stations.

 

[ARG1]

There’s already ttc express buses that need an extra fare. Why would some transit need an extra fare while others wouldn’t. As I said I’m skeptical in general of both parties promises because it’s so easy to delay things, blame changes on economy, or in other cases cancel things in order to start studying all over again. The fact that no one is out right shouting it from the roof tops that it’s all intergrated should be a huge red flag.

Apples to Oranges comparison. Yes, you do need to pay more to use Express busses, but not THAT MUCH more. Imagine for a moment, that we finally get the Sheppard Subway extended east to Sheppard-McCowan. In Metrolinx' ideal world, people from the east would travel along Sheppard, get off at Agincourt, and take the GO train downtown (if that's where they're headed), The cost to travel from Agincourt to Union is $6.48 with Presto, around 2x more than a TTC fare. Unless this commuter is in an absolute hurry, he'll probably just say "Whatever, I'll just take the Sheppard Line to Yonge, and take the Yonge Line all the way down to Union". This will make GO RER a very niche product where only people who have the money for it will actually use it, similar in a lot of ways to the 407 ETR. This isn't what Metrolinx wants from GO RER, and if this is the fare path that's taken, GO RER will absolutely be considered a flop.

 

[sixrings]

I’m pretty sure when everything is presto they will have the analytics and will find the right amount people are willing to pay to move them in whatever fashion metrolinx wants to. Whether that is a fare by distance or a fare by transit vehicle (buses cheapest, street cars second cheapest, subways second most expensive, trains most expensive) or a combination of the two metrolinx will be able to figure out how to get as much money from people as possible while moving them how they want to. The idea that people are going to suddenly take a go or smart track train from agincourt get to their destination union in half the time it would take a bus, subway, subway commute at the same price as what the longer commute costs is just not the way the world works. The better the service the more you pay.

 

[ssiguy2]

The evidence is that without Fare Integration, GO RER is a pointless project, and Metrolinx knows that. What's the point in having a high frequency train line through the 416 if people can't transfer to the local services without paying $3. East Harbour GO is currently being built with 2 Island platforms where the GO train will have a cross platform connection with the Ontario Line, yet that can't happen if there isn't fare integration (imagine having fare gates in the middle of the platform). Metrolinx has outlined in many documents that the main driving force behind GO RER is to serve the more underserved communities, however this isn't possible if there isn't fare integration. Let me put this in another light, what's the point of having high frequency and high capacity rail corridors being upgraded and electrified with a ton of new station serving local communities, if there can't be fare integration to local transit services? These upgrades aren't happening due to the lack of capacity with the current system, they are being built to introduce new viable transit options to various different section of the 905 and 416 while strengthening regional connectivity, however this cannot be done if to use these corridors, you have to pay an additional $5+.

Exactly.

Unless the RER fare is the same as the standard local fare, it will be a monumental waste of money. It will infuriate people having the province spend billion on a two-tiered transit system built for the wealthier. Unless RER is a standard fare, it will be nothing more than a service that most can't afford.

 

[Amare]

Show me one document from Metrolinx that had them building stations at King/Liberty, St.Clair, Unilever, or Finch East. One.

Metronlinx had just barely started GO RER before John Tory's Smarttrack, it was previously called GO Electrification, and all documentation was focused on stations being added in the 905, and only a "Bathurst North/Spadina" station downtown.

There was 0 interest at Metrolinx in building any of the stations downtown, and it wasn't until after the Smarttrack proposal that the "50 stations analysis" by Metrolinx was procured.

And please don't reply "oh but they would have done it anyways, it would have happened eventually". Such conjecture is rediculous. They might have planned a hyperloop to the moon too. Who knows.

I'm not defending Tory, btw. There was many things wrong with Smarttrack, like that Eglinton West spur. Thank god that didn't happen, and the city is no longer on the hook for funding the Eglinton West LRT extension.

But what we have left is actually good, and I absolutely hate this rewriting of history like Metrolinx was already planning to build these stations and Tory had the city pay for them instead. It never happened, and there is 0 evidence that any of these stations would have been built before the proposal in 2014 during Tory's election campaign.

Well instead of Tory wasting everyone's time on this pixie dust dream, all he needed to do is pine on Metrolinx to add additional stations at King/Liberty, Bloor-Lansdowne, etc. Chances are if he did, they would have came into fruition (much in the way that the Park Lawn GO station finally came to fruition).

There was 0 interest by Metrolinx in adding the Park Lawn GO station, and eventually they relented and added it in their plans (a station which was never part of the SmartTrack concept). Tory could have done the exact same thing with the other planned stops, and Metrolinx surely wouldve added the stations in. But instead of doing that, we wasted 7 years going around in circles about this SmartTrack concept which was severely flawed from the start, and he stripped away resources from other rapid transit files just to support his flawed vision.

So basically during his time in office, he's brought us 0 new transit lines in the planning books (the 3-stop Scarborough Extension, Eglinton West extension, and Ontario Line were all spearheaded by the province).

 

[Rainforest]

What do you mean? They are literally doubling tracks and adding more trackage along the RER sections as we speak, and the RER system will not use the same GO trains as present. The number of trains on the GO system is set to quadruple by the time RER is fully implemented.

So everything you are saying is basically incorrect. They are upgrading the rail corridors and adding more trains to deal with the anticipated demand from the GO-RER project, including the downtown stations.

If so, then I love to be proven wrong.

But my understanding is that they are only adding enough extra capacity to serve the growing demand from the outer suburbs into the city. Not adding the TTC-subway scale capacity that would be needed to essentially add the SmartTrack route (Stouffville and Kitchener lines) to the TTC subway network.

 

[sche]

If so, then I love to be proven wrong.

But my understanding is that they are only adding enough extra capacity to serve the growing demand from the outer suburbs into the city. Not adding the TTC-subway scale capacity that would be needed to essentially add the SmartTrack route (Stouffville and Kitchener lines) to the TTC subway network.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

A GO platform is like, 2x the length of a TTC subway platform.

ML has indicated in the GO expansion IBC that they intend on having something like 7-10 minute frequency, excluding express services, on most lines.

On the double track lines, if we just ran 12-car single level trains every 5 minutes, that would already be basically the same capacity as Yonge or B-D subway currently.

With some signal upgrades and higher frequencies, plus double decker trains if it were really necessary, we could fairly easily 2.5x or 3x that capacity if it were needed.

On the quad tracked lines, ultimate capacity is even higher (obviously).

 

[afransen]

If so, then I love to be proven wrong.

But my understanding is that they are only adding enough extra capacity to serve the growing demand from the outer suburbs into the city. Not adding the TTC-subway scale capacity that would be needed to essentially add the SmartTrack route (Stouffville and Kitchener lines) to the TTC subway network.

Well, if the demand would rise as high as you suggest, isn't that a success story? Where these are exclusive GO ROWs, can't we just add more trains and provide more service?

Seems like a good problem to have! And I imagine it would help to ameliorate concerns about Yonge overcrowding and the sufficiency of Ontario Line.