Should Transit City be cancelled? A re-prioritization of how to allocate the funding.

[nfitz]

I just don't get the huge benefit of using the GO over the subway. Current travel time from Union to Finch is 28 minutes, and TTC has estimated the extension will take 12 minutes, so Union to Richmond Hill is 40 minutes. The GO service is currently 35-37 minutes; it could be speeded up some, but there's also talk of adding stations on the non-stop piece from Union to Sheppard. Let's assume that it takes 30-minutes (which I think is very optimistic), and it comes frequently.

So from Langstaff directly to Union it would save 10 minutes? But what about from Royal Orchard to King? Clark to Dundas? 16th Avenue to UT?

I'm just not convinced that it's going to relieve Yonge much; it may even add to Yonge, if passengers from Richmond Hill GO (which is on Major MacKenzie) start taking GO to Langstaff, and then changing to subway.

Not that I don't think that it either shouldn't be built (though the names have to change; having Richmond Hill Centre subway station at Langstaff GO station with another station called Richmond Hill GO station, is going to cause confusion).

 

[Ryan]

Raccoon country? Just what part of Toronto doesn't have raccoons - there are many near the existing subway lines.

god, I'm in the annex and there is raccoon crap all over the fire escape

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Even if you added stations to the Richmond Hill GO line about every 1km - which would seriously slow down the line - it would not offer the kind of local service that a DRL up Don Mills could, or the kind of local service downtown that a DRL going anywhere could.

People have gone through in detail why the RH GO line should be improved even though it won't do much to relieve Yonge, but other people seem convinced that 90% of all transit users in the city are going from Langstaff to Union Station.

 

[leopetr]

I just don't get the huge benefit of using the GO over the subway. Current travel time from Union to Finch is 28 minutes, and TTC has estimated the extension will take 12 minutes,

The bus service isn't 12 minutes. Improving an existing GO line is cheaper than extending the subway. This is a quick win if done first.

I'm just not convinced that it's going to relieve Yonge much; it may even add to Yonge, if passengers from Richmond Hill GO (which is on Major MacKenzie) start taking GO to Langstaff, and then changing to subway.

I have a hard time imagining more people doing that than the reverse. You are also assuming a Yonge subway extension, which is unfunded at this point and would take a while to build.

 

[nfitz]

The bus service isn't 12 minutes. Improving an existing GO line is cheaper than extending the subway. This is a quick win if done first.

Sure, no reason not to do it; I'm not sure what bus to which you refer (Viva?) ... the 12-minutes comes from the TTC documents on the subway extension.

You are also assuming a Yonge subway extension, which is unfunded at this point and would take a while to build.

We were discussing relieving the Yonge line, the DRL, and the Richmond Hill GO. The whole concept of the DRL (downtown relief line) revival has been to relieve the Yonge line, to allow the Yonge line to be built to Richmond Hill; I thought that's what we were discussing; apologies if it wasn't.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The bus service isn't 12 minutes. Improving an existing GO line is cheaper than extending the subway. This is a quick win if done first.

Cheaper means nothing if it doesn't help the bulk of the people that would actually use the subway extension, which the GO line won't.

 

[kEiThZ]

Option 1 folks: Are you all in agreement with the route selection? Would you keep routes like Morningside or Jane when there are other candidates which would be better?

Option 2 folks: How do you square the loss of accessibility through increased stop spacing with the speed gains from losing minor stops?

 

[Second_in_pie]

Even if you added stations to the Richmond Hill GO line about every 1km - which would seriously slow down the line - it would not offer the kind of local service that a DRL up Don Mills could, or the kind of local service downtown that a DRL going anywhere could.

People have gone through in detail why the RH GO line should be improved even though it won't do much to relieve Yonge, but other people seem convinced that 90% of all transit users in the city are going from Langstaff to Union Station.

Interesting thing about that, I'm willing to bet that a lot of people that'd even go to the downtown region wouldn't take either subway or Go train. Many Richmond Hillers would probably just be taking their cars across the 404, down the DVP/Gardener and to work. Giving reliable, all day service to RH GO would probably open up a totally new market, rather than take riders off Yonge.

As for the DRL offering a totally different service, it's true. If the DRL up Don Mills was to be useful, it'd at least have to have a stop every concession, and there's plenty of room and demand for other stops. If Richmond Hill Go was to add in all those stations (including a near-impossible one at Bloor,) it'd be much too slow to provide the proper longer distance service that it needs to.
Anyways, Don Mills is quite a heavy corridor. It'd be anchored at the end by Seneca College (connection with Finch East busses, several Scarborough busses, Viva Green, and possibly some express route to Leslie and 7,) which would both act as a huge terminal as well as a stop to serve the college (2 if they have a Finch station and then a Seneca station.) Apparently it's the largest college in Canada, so that should be saying something about possible ridership.

And if you haven't driven along Don Mills, I suggest you do. There's a pretty constant density along the entire route, plenty of room to densify with infill development, and a good opportunity for a raised guideway track in the middle of the road (meaning quite cheap construction.) The ridership of the Don Mills bus should be a tribute to this density, and it's right next to the DVP for most of the route!

 

[kettal]

Interesting thing about that, I'm willing to bet that a lot of people that'd even go to the downtown region wouldn't take either subway or Go train. Many Richmond Hillers would probably just be taking their cars across the 404, down the DVP/Gardener and to work. Giving reliable, all day service to RH GO would probably open up a totally new market, rather than take riders off Yonge.

The RH train is so over capacity that people have to squeeze in and stand on the stairs for the whole trip. There's thousands of drivers who would take the train if it had decent service.

 

[kettal]

Are the existing elevated portions of the subway considered too noisy (between High Park and Runnymede, Royal York and Islington, crossing the 401)?

Well obviously it's drowned out by the highway near the 401. The locals like to complain about the noise at these points, but I imagine they'd be worse if truly build elevated. The noise levels around some Chicago L train corridors act as development repellent.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

You people need to start directing your ideas and opinions towards Councillor Giambrone and Metrolinx very soon if you want to see changes happen

 

[Disparishun]

Even if you added stations to the Richmond Hill GO line about every 1km - which would seriously slow down the line - it would not offer the kind of local service that a DRL up Don Mills could, or the kind of local service downtown that a DRL going anywhere could.

Right, but by the same token, if the DRL has stations every 1 km or so then, by the time it hits Eglinton, you're not heading anywhere very fast. Clearly an LRT-ized GO line wouldn't have too many more stations that it has now, and very few (2 or so) between Eglinton and Union. It'd be an express route with interconnections at: Union, [Downtown], [somewhere between Bloor & Eglinton], Eglinton LRT, Sheppard Subway, Finch LRT/bus (depending), and maybe Steeles en route to 7.

I just don't get the huge benefit of using the GO over the subway. Current travel time from Union to Finch is 28 minutes, and TTC has estimated the extension will take 12 minutes, so Union to Richmond Hill is 40 minutes.

What is the current travel time from Sheppard/Don Mills to Union? From Finch/Pharmacy to Yonge/Eglinton? You are focussed on those getting on or off toward the RH line's northern terminus. That is the part of the line where the least relief is to be had. It is certainly not where you would want to win the bulk of your riders.

As for east North York/west Scarborough, however, I have it from reliable sources that buses run across major east-west arteries every so often, purely to shuttle people to and from the Yonge line, whence they head south.

Cheaper means nothing if it doesn't help the bulk of the people that would actually use the subway extension, which the GO line won't.

It wouldn't help the people that would use the Yonge extension, but it would relieve what is the northern half of the existing Yonge line.

The RH train is so over capacity that people have to squeeze in and stand on the stairs for the whole trip. There's thousands of drivers who would take the train if it had decent service.

I'm curious, where are they getting on? I live a couple of km from Langstaff station, but have almost never taken GO -- I work at Union, and it would make no sense.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

It wouldn't help the people that would use the Yonge extension, but it would relieve what is the northern half of the existing Yonge line.

I was obviously talking about the Yonge extension, for which the GO line is not at all a substitute. I already said improving the RH line is necessary but still wouldn't do that much to relieve Yonge...why drag the argument backwards by retreating to "would relieve"?

 

[Fresh Start]

I just don't get the huge benefit of using the GO over the subway. Current travel time from Union to Finch is 28 minutes, and TTC has estimated the extension will take 12 minutes, so Union to Richmond Hill is 40 minutes. The GO service is currently 35-37 minutes; it could be speeded up some, but there's also talk of adding stations on the non-stop piece from Union to Sheppard. Let's assume that it takes 30-minutes (which I think is very optimistic), and it comes frequently.

So from Langstaff directly to Union it would save 10 minutes? But what about from Royal Orchard to King? Clark to Dundas? 16th Avenue to UT?

I'm just not convinced that it's going to relieve Yonge much; it may even add to Yonge, if passengers from Richmond Hill GO (which is on Major MacKenzie) start taking GO to Langstaff, and then changing to subway.

Not that I don't think that it either shouldn't be built (though the names have to change; having Richmond Hill Centre subway station at Langstaff GO station with another station called Richmond Hill GO station, is going to cause confusion).

It all depends on where one's point of origin and end-destination are located. I'd imagine that new stations at John/Bayview, York Mills, Concorde and possibly the West Don Lands will not add significently onto travel commute times if one's heading for a trip-generaror within proximity of a stop or one that is easily commutable to via a short bus or LRT/subway feeder. If we were to assume those truly seeking the downtown core in a hurry would prefer the GO train which can run at headways of every five minutes, the justification for a RHC subway extension quickly loses all steam. South of Steeles ridership levels are expected to be 9,100pphpd by 2017. North of Steeles that figure is only 7,100pphpd even by the year 2031 or far well below the minimum threshold for subway operations. The Eglinton corridor meanwhile based on current-day ridership levels would have a minimum of 9,375pphpd if built as a subway line.

Overanalysing where a handful of commuters at Royal Orchard need to go so badly that only a multibillion dollar subway extension can appease them, does the transit-using community at large a huge disservice. A more practical solution for the majority is a minor subway extension to Steeles, met by dedicated BRT (or LRT) lanes down the median of Yonge through Thornhill. This reserved corridor would then intravenously link not only RHCC to the subway line (via bus lanes with queue jumping signal priority, Steeles to RHC wouldn't exceed 15 minutes, if that); but also continue north along Yonge to directly serve Hillcrest Mall, Major Mackenzie and Bernard Terminal.

Given that the subway extension would cover the distance in 12 minutes as you yourself have pointed out, and the headways north of Finch Stn would be every 5 minutes rather than every 2'35"; it begs the question, why promote the most expensive option when the combined carrying capacity of GO trains and LRT can more than supplant its purpose? GO trains can carry 1,800 seated passengers per trip. Bi-articulated buses can carry loads of 270. And 4-car LRT trainsets around 750 per trip. Combinations of the three modes would best cater to local regular, local express, and long-haul interregional transit clientele in ways a single subway line never will.

In summation, if RHC is truly meant to become the next big thing in urban planning, it will become just that with or without the promise of cost-prohibitive subways through low-density, car-oriented sprawl! And before I'm called a hypocrite, at least every other subway line that I've advocated for has preexisting density or popular connecting feeders translating into Day One heavy usage at all stops en route, even through Richview. The TTC itself, meanwhile, readily admits that 4 out of 6 of the new RHC stops will have under 2,000 customers per day.

 

[Disparishun]

I was obviously talking about the Yonge extension, for which the GO line is not at all a substitute. I already said improving the RH line is necessary but still wouldn't do that much to relieve Yonge...why drag the argument backwards by retreating to "would relieve"?

You've lost me. I think an improved/integrated RH line would take a lot of riders off the Yonge line -- namely, a huge chunk of the riders coming from the east, of which there are a ton. Do you disagree?