Should the Province upload the TTC or the subway network and merge it with Metrolinx?

[W. K. Lis]

If city council can't get the TTC out of the incompetent hands of Ford's henchmen/henchwomen, then to save it by getting merged with Metrolinx, but only as a last resort.

 

[typezed]

Necessary improvement to the transit network like the DRL can't be built, or hardly considered, with the decision making in the hands of Toronto city council because parochial politicians use the envy of suburbanites towards the downtown for political advantage. Why should transit dollars be spent downtown, they ask, when the downtown already has subways and Scarborough or North York or Etobicoke are said (erroneously) to have none. Put the decision making in the hands of the province and the debate becomes why should higher order transit be built serving downtown Toronto when Mississauga, Richmond Hill, Brampton, Oakville and Pickering are stuck using buses. It is the province that is responsible for the subway addition being built to a couple parking lots in Vaughan. Compared to that effort placing underground transit past the Smart Centres of Eglinton East can be considered thoughtful urban planning.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

This is an interesting thread. Essentially, Metrolinx wants to spend money to get people from Brampton to Oakville, and TTC wants to spend money to get people to Humber College -- both in the interest of fairness -- whereas what we really need is to get people to/from downtown more easily. Nice.

 

[leopetr]

I think McGuinty is doing a terrific job, but regardless I wouldn't want to upload anything that a future Premier Hudak might get his rural mitts on -- and the last thing I'd want is Hudak in charge of the TTC.

As much as I might wish otherwise, I don't foresee Ontario adopting Alberta's approach to provincial governance.

 

[RedRocket191]

This is an interesting thread. Essentially, Metrolinx wants to spend money to get people from Brampton to Oakville, and TTC wants to spend money to get people to Humber College -- both in the interest of fairness -- whereas what we really need is to get people to/from downtown more easily. Nice.

Getting people to and from downtown more easily is one goal, but I suggest you look at traffic congestion along suburb to suburb corridors (like highway 7) before you jump to any conclusions. Our traffic problems are not as clear-cut as one might think.

 

[freshcutgrass]

I wouldn't want to upload anything that a future Premier Hudak might get his rural mitts on

I don't think it really matters what party is in charge at Queen's Park. Currently, the TTC is 100% concerned with public transit in the City of Toronto. If the City of Toronto becomes a minority voice in a region-wide run system, we will have less say about how transit works within the city.

Public transit is always a political football, and the 905 majority will be calling the shots. The City of Toronto can only lose in this scenario.

Isn't the fact that the province is building subways to suburban highways and sprawled suburbia proof enough of what we will have in store if the TTC loses control?

Whenever we let Queen's park call the shots on subways, we either get cancelled projects, half jobs, or badly planned lines. We also end up with dink projects like the Scarb RT, which has to be scrapped completely and start from scratch.

Also, we need politicians at city hall that actually CARE about the city's public transit. And if you want to upload the city's transit to Queen's Park, and throw control away, it means you don't care.

I know the problem is funding, but then get the bloody funding, and keep control. We know this can be done, because it was the case in the past, and even recently (during Miller's tenure), we managed to get over $12 billion in upper level government transit funding. Let's keep control AND get the money...after all, it is our money.

Ford doesn't like subways...doesn't have a viable plan for any either, and would love to just hand the responsibility for public transit in this city to someone else. We need a city hall that wants to take on the responsibility of public transit, and has the skills to do it....not those who want to avoid the responsibility.

 

[TrickyRicky]

I get the impression however that upper levels of government are either ideologically uninterested in contributing to transit because it is outside their jurisdiction (Federal) or broke and no longer interested in Transit in the city proper for the next decade or more(Provincial). That just leaves the city.

In some article today I read that Stintz said we would need about 300 million per year to finance the Sheppard subway. I'm not interested in the sheppard subway itself so much as that ball-park figure. The reason is that 300 million is a quite attainable goal for the city. If you structured funding towards this specific goal (not operations, not general revenues) not only would 300-million per year (as the theoretical model for stable annual capital improvement to the mass transit system) be able to be raised but I think it would even be accepted by the people of Toronto.

I think there is a gross misunderstanding about how funds flow. Funds flow towards initiative. The feds for instance don't want to contribute to transit but they want to contribute towards feel good winner projects. You couldn't get them to give you a dime cap in hand. But you could get them to fund the remaining 25-50 million per year if you already found 250 million per year yourself. You do the hard stuff and they slap their stricker on the bumper and pay you the last 25-50 million. I am a total laymen and don't really know the numbers but as an example, if you continued with cuts at city hall while re-imposing the vehicle registration tax (40-50 million), a parking levy (40-50 million), diverting more development funding and land-transfer tax revenue to this specific initiative(40-50 million) , plus add casino revenue (40-50 million) you are getting up there where the remaining hole could be filled. We are not talking about unreliable one-time, once-in-a-generation funding. We are talking about stable annual commiteed funding. My point being it is wrong to assume this is about "not having the money" we have a leadership and strategic planning gap, not a fiscal one.

 

[freshcutgrass]

I get the impression however that upper levels of government are either ideologically uninterested in contributing to transit because it is outside their jurisdiction (Federal)

The great thing about ideology, is that it is fluid. It's only out of their jurisdiction, because of out-dated ideology. And since we've already seen some funding flow from the feds, we can see that change happening. Basically they sit and legislate every day...so using our federal tax dollars for sustained public transit funding for the cities where those tax dollars originate from is a simple matter of legislation. One day women can't vote...the next day they can. One day gays cannot legally marry....the next day they can. How? Legislation.

or broke and no longer interested in Transit in the city proper for the next decade or more(Provincial).

I don't like the term "broke". The money is there...it just needs to be re-directed or raised. If the City of Toronto wants more provincial funding, then do your best to get it re-directed, or agree to pay the extra taxes needed to pay for it.

That just leaves the city.

Well of course. I didn't mean to imply hinging everything on upper levels of government. But part of the municipal govt's job, is to fight on our behalf to secure funding from upper levels of government. This is even more important to Toronto, as it can't afford to be the cash cow it has always been. This is the wonky reality we live in here in Ontario, where provincial politics still operates as if it were the early 1800's. This has to change.

I can't worry about Mississauga or Brampton. The problems they face now in terms of poor public transit infrastructure is a result of their own poor urban planning. They have to pay for their own mistakes. And they were totally avoidable mistakes...yet they made them anyway. Toronto should not be penalized for doing a better job.

And things do, and have changed. You can't give up on this. Things only change because it was forced.

The City of Toronto has traditionally been misers when it comes to spending tax dollars building and operating public transit. That's why we make riders foot the bill. What we are seeing now, is the reality that this can no longer be sustained as it has in the past. We are currently in denial of this, and is why we believe fantasies put forward by mental midgets we vote in as mayors and councillors. The jig is almost up. You know this is true when even SUN editorials are starting to realize this. ha ha

 

[Palma]

Metrolinx is tasked with improving the regional transportation network, so they will advocate for modes of travel which further that goal. Trains which travel faster by stopping less frequently tend to serve that objective moreso than trains which stop more frequently - though there is some overlap.
r.

THats what GO is for

 

[TrickyRicky]

Freshcutgrass, the city has been trying to get stable funding for transit from senior government for generations. It will not happen. We need to accept this and put our transit destiny in our own hands (no matter how amateur hour city hall is). The strategy, as I mentioned, should be for the city to find at minimum 50-60 percent of the funding and get senior government to chip in the final component. That is how you leverage senior government, do all the hardwork and heavy lifting and let them slap their sticker on the final product and be the heros, given them all the credit for the remaining 25-30 percent of the funding.

 

[freshcutgrass]

Freshcutgrass, the city has been trying to get stable funding for transit from senior government for generations. It will not happen. We need to accept this and put our transit destiny in our own hands (no matter how amateur hour city hall is). The strategy, as I mentioned, should be for the city to find at minimum 50-60 percent of the funding and get senior government to chip in the final component. That is how you leverage senior government, do all the hardwork and heavy lifting and let them slap their sticker on the final product and be the heros, given them all the credit for the remaining 25-30 percent of the funding.

I've been advocating doing nothing but putting our transit destiny in our own hands. I've never implied we should do anything less than everything we can through municipal means. It really doesn't matter if it's stable or otherwise...upper level funding has always been a fundamental element in Toronto's transit infrastructure, and working with upper levels of government is part of the city's job. If that were not the case, then you could kiss away a Spadina subway expansion...new subway trains....new street cars and whatever it is we end up with regarding the "Transit City/Ford Plan".

 

[Palma]

I'v. If that were not the case, then you could kiss away a Spadina subway expansion....

So where is the problem?

 

[BMO]

Getting people to and from downtown more easily is one goal, but I suggest you look at traffic congestion along suburb to suburb corridors (like highway 7) before you jump to any conclusions. Our traffic problems are not as clear-cut as one might think.

Highway 7 is a perfect example where people have the option of fast transportation (highway 407), but the majority do not use it. I wouldn't doubt for a second that congestion on the 401 and highway 7 would be relieve by making the 407 free, but then that would just have two highways congested, but to lesser extent than currently.

 

[freshcutgrass]

I wouldn't doubt for a second that congestion on the 401 and highway 7 would be relieve by making the 407 free, but then that would just have two highways congested, but to lesser extent than currently.

They wouldn't be less congested for long. We already know for a fact that the congestion equilibrium will naturally be found...so why do we keep telling ourselves this complete fantasy?

Wouldn't the better idea be to start pricing the other highways accordingly, and actually reduce congestion? That's the only way it is going to work.