Should the Province upload the TTC or the subway network and merge it with Metrolinx?

[MetroMan]

It's becoming clear that the TTC is too important to the regional economic viability of the GTA (and therefore the majority of Ontario's economy) to allow a dysfunctional Mayor and City Council to call the shots.

The subway network -- though perhaps not buses and streetcars -- is no longer a Toronto transportation asset. It reaches into Vaughan and with a future Eglinton extension to the airport, into Mississauga. A Finch LRT extension onto Steeles would also benefit Brampton.

Given that Metrolinx will already own the Transit City lines, should the province upload part or all of the TTC and merge it with Metrolinx?

Discuss...

 

[Tulse]

For every Rob Ford, there is a Mike Harris. I don't see why the province would be any better steward of the TTC, and given the political role that Toronto plays (i.e., overwhelmingly Liberal), a conservative provincial government might very well be willing to gut the TTC, since it wouldn't cost them any votes. It's far better to have the decisions made by people who are directly elected by Torontonians, however dysfunctional municipal government currently is.

 

[RedRocket191]

I don't think the ownership structure really matters, provided we achieve some objectives:

1) Strong local service to reduce the need to drive to stations.
2) Frequent regional service to quickly shuttle people from one area to another.
3) A unified fare system where the fare boundaries are not arbitrary.
4) A unified system where passengers do not differentiate between "the green bus" and "the red bus".

Provided we can meet those objectives I feel that who owns what is entirely academic.

 

[LordWanker]

I don't think the ownership structure really matters, provided we achieve some objectives:

1) Strong local service to reduce the need to drive to stations.
2) Frequent regional service to quickly shuttle people from one area to another.
3) A unified fare system where the fare boundaries are not arbitrary.
4) A unified system where passengers do not differentiate between "the green bus" and "the red bus".

Provided we can meet those objectives I feel that who owns what is entirely academic.

You're missing the critical piece of stable adequate financing, ideally completely independent of politics but in reality dependent.

 

[MetroMan]

My reasoning is that since transit infrastructure (subways at least) is out of the reach of municipalities to afford and given that Toronto's network serves other cities, the regional authority (the Province) should take over planning and funding.

There is currently an invisible limit on the TTC network that is not based on transit demand nor any sensible transit planning. It exists purely because of a municipal perimeter. For example, it makes so much sense for the Bloor/Danforth line to be extended to Mississauga city centre (Square One) and even more for it to continue from there to the airport but Mississauga doesn't consider it a funding priority and Toronto won't pay for service outside of its borders. A provincial run rapid transit network would resolve this artificial conflict and provide better planning.

In my opinion, municipalities should continue to operate and fund local service. In Toronto's case, this is the bus and streetcar network. The Province would upload and merge the subway and LRT network into either its GO or Metrolinx brand. Harmony between the systems is already being implemented in the way of PRESTO.

The question is would the Province simply take responsibility for funding the subway network or would they have to buy it from Toronto? What is the capital value of the subway network? Should Toronto and the TTC just be happy for the Province to take this large operational expense off its hands and give the subway network and vehicles to Metrolinx?

 

[RC8]

For every Rob Ford, there is a Mike Harris. I don't see why the province would be any better steward of the TTC, and given the political role that Toronto plays (i.e., overwhelmingly Liberal), a conservative provincial government might very well be willing to gut the TTC, since it wouldn't cost them any votes. It's far better to have the decisions made by people who are directly elected by Torontonians, however dysfunctional municipal government currently is.

I agree with this. The damage a conservative mayor can cause to the TTC is minimal compared to the harm a conservative premier could.

 

[Tulse]

I agree with this. The damage a conservative mayor can cause to the TTC is minimal compared to the harm a conservative premier could.

And consider as well that in the current system the province, by having control of some of the money and legally overseeing cities, acts as "sober second thought" on the city. If the province controlled the complete agenda, and went nuts like Ford has done, there would be little recourse for the municipal government, as the feds are unlikely to step in.

 

[Palma]

I don't think the ownership structure really matters, provided we achieve some objectives:

1) Strong local service to reduce the need to drive to stations.
2) Frequent regional service to quickly shuttle people from one area to another.
3) A unified fare system where the fare boundaries are not arbitrary.
4) A unified system where passengers do not differentiate between "the green bus" and "the red bus".

Provided we can meet those objectives I feel that who owns what is entirely academic.

Then you need fare by distance

 

[EnviroTO]

The surface network has the lower cost recovery. Uploading the subway to Metrolinx is a sure way to see surface network cuts.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

The surface network has the lower cost recovery. Uploading the subway to Metrolinx is a sure way to see surface network cuts.

Can anyone explain why Metrolinx is so dead-set on subways? Shouldn't a regional transit network coordinator want to spread the wealth far and wide -- subways are really a way to get folks to the downtown core efficiently, not allow folks to get from point A to point B outside the core. Why does Metrolinx like subways so much?

 

[sixrings]

Can anyone explain why Metrolinx is so dead-set on subways? Shouldn't a regional transit network coordinator want to spread the wealth far and wide -- subways are really a way to get folks to the downtown core efficiently, not allow folks to get from point A to point B outside the core. Why does Metrolinx like subways so much?

Because if ttc provides regional travel via subways on eglinton or up to richmond Hill or to Vaughan then go doesn't need to run extra trains and which ultimately saves them a ton of money.

 

[RedRocket191]

Then you need fare by distance

Not necessarily. Street which looks the same on both sides = arbitrary. River = not necessarily arbitrary.

I am a proponent of fare by distance, but there are plenty of other potential solutions.

 

[RedRocket191]

Can anyone explain why Metrolinx is so dead-set on subways? Shouldn't a regional transit network coordinator want to spread the wealth far and wide -- subways are really a way to get folks to the downtown core efficiently, not allow folks to get from point A to point B outside the core. Why does Metrolinx like subways so much?

Metrolinx is tasked with improving the regional transportation network, so they will advocate for modes of travel which further that goal. Trains which travel faster by stopping less frequently tend to serve that objective moreso than trains which stop more frequently - though there is some overlap.

If one does not feel that Metrolinx is respecting the needs of local travel then I suggest one advocates for the province to change their mandate. IMO, complaining about Metrolinx wanting to focus on the regional angle is like buying a guinea pig and complaining when it doesn't play fetch and roll over.

 

[BurlOak]

Can anyone explain why Metrolinx is so dead-set on subways? Shouldn't a regional transit network coordinator want to spread the wealth far and wide -- subways are really a way to get folks to the downtown core efficiently, not allow folks to get from point A to point B outside the core. Why does Metrolinx like subways so much?

I thought is was Metrolinx/Province that forced the Ford Memo to maintain LRT vehicles. That decision probably helped kill any undergoround transit on Eglinton East. Maybe Metrolinx likes a more rapid transit (less stops), I I do not see them advocating strongly for subway.

 

[TrickyRicky]

I would have been more positive on this concept in the past. However, given the current fiscal position of both the provincial and federal government, suddenly and improbably the disfunctional city seems to look like the more competent entity.