Shops at Don Mills (redevelopment, Giannone Petricone/Pellow + Associates )

[Dugmor]

I had attended two public consultation meetings in the shopping mall. We were told that the plan was to construct around 7 or 8 condos along The Donway. Kids who grew up in the neighbourhood are now adults and they are all over the country. They are concerned about the well being of their againg parents and would like them to be able to go into an apartment without leaving the neighbourhood. Further, some of the grown up children, themselves, have shown desire to purchase a unit in the area for the day when they eventually come back to the neighbourhood.

I had specifically asked Fram Building Group president questions that if you planning to build apartments mainly for wealthy seniors, then you will have to consider (a) security and (b) that the seniors will be concerned going for shopping in an open area because of snow and ice.

I was told that there will be private security arrangements 24 hours a day and that only authorized vehicles -- security, fire brigade, ambulance -- will travel on the inside roads. Further, that the plaza will be renovated along the lines of The Bayview Village -- upscale and enclosed. There will be shops all around the outer edges -- European bakery was one example given -- which will have entrance both from inside the enclosed mall and from the outside as well when the weather is better. I was told that this type of concept has already been tried somewhere in US -- Cincinnati was the name given, I think -- and it has been working there wonderfully.

It seems that somewhere along the line, planning went awry. Owners will learn a costly lesson.

Which plaza are you referring to? Over by the Blockbuster on the Donway?

 

[KA1]

Ka1

I was referring to Don Mills Centre. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The new Don Mills Centre is a near-complete disaster. Walking around one warmish evening last week, I passed literally no more than 20-30 people over the course of 15 minutes. That's not including people inside stores, of which there were a few in most stores, but, still...pathetic. And at least three of the people I passed were there for McNally Robinson, only to find it closed.

It just feels like a few chain stores ripped out of a mall and plunked down in a parking lot. Cadillac Fairview committed urban seppuku by building the stores as one-storey standalone big box outlets while trying to crack open the rest of the site for more density than permitted. Even one storey of apartments above the stores would have been an immense improvement. The parallel parking spots make the mall seem like a sad little town whose main drag is no longer busy enough to support a four lane road, so they add parking spots and a few planted trees in a laughable and futile effort to reclaim the space for people. You can't wander from store to store without getting run over, which I guess adds to the mall's, sorry, the lifestyle centre's, entertainment value.

Malls without roofs do not work in Toronto. People say "but Queen Street works!" but Queen Street is not a mall. Don Mills Centre might work a lot better and attract more visitors/shoppers if it was filled with mostly independent stores and restaurants.

McEwan looks like a warehouse. No, not industrial chic, but like the inside of a dusty warehouse in Rexdale. Their selection of fleurs de sels was surprisingly good, but I found no pomelos and no pimentos, so they were only 1/3 on the list of random foods I searched for. Pusateri's is a fun place to peoplewatch and play 'guess which plastic surgeries they've had' but McEwan was too empty for that...at 6pm the only other person there was one housewife wandering around looking for peanut butter, and probably not even a yachting mom or a riding mom, just a regular soccer mom.

 

[Towered]

I really want to check out this place for myself - not just to see what all the debate is about, but I'm not familiar with that area of Toronto whatsoever.

 

[nfitz]

It seemed quite busy when I was there in the fall, and before Christmas. A weekday evening in January may not be the best time to test the strength of retail.

Though frankly the one reason I was stopping in was for McNally Robinson; with it closing, I just can't imagine I'll be there. McEwan's is okay, but not cheap, and I didn't find any of the products in there, that would make me go out of my way - not even a decent bagel; it certainly was quite busy every time I was there though.

Though ironically Metro now stocks decent bagels ... so perhaps I'll stop in there occasionally ... and wander around.

 

[Torontovibe]

I also felt that these stores should have been topped with condos/rentals, to make it feel like a real part of the city. Right now, it just feels like big box stores but it's missing that real city vibe. It needed to have 5 or 6 levels of condos on top. Cadillac Fairview not only made a big mistake but they also lost an opportunity to make money. The huge parking lot on the east side is also rather disappointing. This should have been lined up right along Don Mills with a big sidewalk, suitable for outdoor cafes and dining. There is still some hope for improvement, with the new development, if Cadillac Fairview has learned a lesson. (That's questionable) Residential over retail, it's kind of a no-brainer, since it works all over the world.

 

[nfitz]

When I've been wandering around it, it really hasn't felt like big box shopping centre to me. Not once did I have to dodge speeding traffic and wander through parking lots to get from store to store. I think they did quite well with the architecture. The current parking lot along Don Mills road I think detracts - but that could be covered in a later phase. The construction is such that it would be pretty easy to knock out a building and replace it with something taller.

I was quite impressed by the feel - I'm surprised that people are raising this!

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Cadillac Fairview does want to build condos...but they want more than the city will allow. They tried to squish them all into the remaining un-redeveloped sites so that they could come back in the future and redevelop the big box stores to squeeze more development out of the sponge. Even one or two storeys of condos above the stores now, which would amount to, what, maybe only 200 units, would have been an amazing improvement. In terms of the parking lots fronting Don Mills, better to get some phases right and leave the rest till later than mess up the whole site now.

It seemed quite busy when I was there in the fall, and before Christmas. A weekday evening in January may not be the best time to test the strength of retail.

Your anecdotes are as worthless as anyone else's so there's no point trying to duel with them on the basis of semantics.

The old mall was never as empty as the lifestyle centre was the last few times I've been there. There were certainly no seniors using the space as a public living room and there's no stores that would lure shoppers from afar. The place was deserted and dismal. Instead of bringing stores to the street and to people, the redevelopment accomplished basically nothing other than bringing cars into the mall. The new mall's only hope is that the stores and restaurants and services sort themselves out after a few years and start making sense, with appropriate stores in appropriate locations...hopefully CF will manage the place as a mixed use street and not as a standard mall.

 

[nfitz]

Your anecdotes are as worthless as anyone else's so there's no point trying to duel with them on the basis of semantics.

If we were all to provide ancedotes, then the sum total should provide value.

The old mall was never as empty as the lifestyle centre was the last few times I've been there.

Which piece is the lifestyle centre? I may not have seen that.

Certainly the old mall was pretty dead the last couple of times I was in. I hadn't been in since the 1980s when I went back in 2005 or so, and I was shocked how dead it was. The new mall was much more alive when I was there ... which I admit wasn't in the dead of winter.

Clearly our timing was different, as I was in McEwan a couple of times just before 8 pm, before they closed, and I had to line up to pay, and was surprised they were closing so early when they were quite busy.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

It sometimes seemed busy during the summer/fall when there was a modicum of programming and they were blabbing about it all over the news, but there is another whole half a year to wait out. It won't be novel next year and there may be even fewer destination stores. If a mall fails to lure shoppers during good winter weather, something's wrong. There's no shortage of people at a mall like Fairview or Bayview Village at these times, and the Shops at Don Mills is now trying to compete directly with them instead of with local retail spots like Eglinton Square. I couldn't care less about the viability of individual stores, though...what I care about is the feel of the overall space and its impact on the neighbourhood and city and the poor precedent it sets. It's shiny and new but what wouldn't be? They only demolished the old mall because splitting the site up into bite-sized lifestyle centre portions was the easiest way to phase in future residential/office redevelopments, not because the old mall was incapable of housing more expensive and trendier stores. It's really kind of pathetic because it could have been so much better, with actual public streets or an actual pedestrian shopping village where people don't share the outdoor space with cars. Big box complexes bring the stores to the parking lot but this goes one discouraging step further, bringing the parking right into the mall.

If we were all to provide ancedotes, then the sum total should provide value

There's a difference between stating an opinion and trolling for arguments. There's no value in the latter.

edit - oh, and try googling lifestyle centre. Is "what's a battle?" your next question? Cashiers are busy in every store at closing because that's when people get kicked out and are forced to pay. Realize that in 2005 the mall was already on its last legs before redevelopment...the redevelopment process was fairly protracted and took its toll on the vitality of the mall after 2004 - why market or invest in something that's going to be demolished soon? And you're comparing the mall then with Christmas now in its first year when it still has substantial novelty appeal?

 

[Homer]

It's funny reading comments from people who just have no idea. I was at a popular restaurant
in midtown yesterday and there were only two tables (including mine) with people at them at the
height of dinner time. With the reasoning of you guys the restaurant is doomed to fail. oh no

No apartments above the stores (there are some offices though), yeah you guys are smarter
than everyone else and Cadillac Fairview could not possibly have thought of that. There are
reasons for everything.

 

[SunriseChampion]

^These genial reasons being....?

 

[alklay]

Homer, I am not quite sure how 'popular' that 'popular' restaurant was if they only had 2 tables of people at the height of dinner on a Thursday.

I guess, with that definition, Don Mills Centre is very popular.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

^These genial reasons being....?

Cadillac Fairview didn't bother putting residential above the stores because they thought they could be sneaky and fit twice as much in overall if they shift all the residences to other sites, leaving the "urban village" free for future redevelopment. We ended up with a big box mall, complete with piped-in music and private streets, that is in no way integrated with the rest of Don Mills. Even 100 residential units above the retail would have been a world of difference.

 

[Mike in TO]

The OMB hearing of Cadillac Fairview’s appeals for official plan and zoning by- law amendments to permit the development is set to begin April 7. Phase two which includes 1,387-residential units and 7,530-sq.ft. of retail and office space spread over several buildings ranging from 12 to 26 storeys is the subject of the hearing. There is another issue at Divisional Court regarding a dispute on parkland dedication as the city doesn't want old plans altered, yet the phase 2 plans have a road going where the park was initially planned (the debate isn't on the size of the park, but the location). If the park issue is decided before the OMB hearing and the city is successful in securing the original site held in escrow for the future park, then CF will have to redesign its site plan which will further delaying the hearing of appeals brought forward over two years ago.

Another road block that was nearly resolved was the contentious settlement offer put before city council by CF that proposed to build a new community centre next to a public park in the area. The city has noted that the Don Mills Civitan arena located next to the development, requires $1 million worth of repairs. The city is considering replacing the aging arena and has looked at some 285-potential sites. A new single-pad arena would cost approximately $5 million, while a double-pad arena would cost about $7.5 million. The CF proposal would have amounted to the largest private sector investment in a top notch community centre (They offered $17 million). While I don't subscribe to 'let's make a deal planning' - the fact of the matter is that's for better or for worse the system we've got. The local councillor (Cliff Jenkins) and the local rate-payers were apparently on side in support of the deal. Councillor Minnan-Wong from an adjacent ward got involved and objected to the deal which would have led to densities in the 4.2 to 4.6 range. The council vote was 17-16 rejecting to offer. The community centre is now off the table as the case is before the OMB.

Re: Parking lots.... there have been a lot of comments in this thread about the parking lots facing Don Mills. Those will eventually be redeveloped. While the phasing may be questionable to some, it may be in the best long term interests of the community to save the best for last once the new retail and residential community has had an opportunity to establish itself - furthermore, by the time the parking lots are examined for development opportunities there may be greater certainty as to the future transit infrastructure planned for Don Mills. This would provide greater opportunities to better integrate transit oriented development along the avenue.

Proposed site plan: