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Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

gweed123 said:
Haha, your opinion is very much welcome!

I feel that there are three valid short/midterm options for Sheppard East:

1) Build BRT lanes from Consumers to McCowan, with queue jump lanes east of McCowan. West of McCowan needs full lanes, but east of there the ridership will probably be low enough that QJ will do. Obviously the west end may be a problem, but lacking the capital necessary to reconfigure/rebuild the Sheppard/404 interchange to accommodate BRT lanes, queue jump lanes heading over the 404 may be the most cost effective option.

2) Extend the subway to Victoria Park, BRT lanes from Vic Park to McCowan, queue jump lanes east of McCowan. Naturally, the BRT lanes can be completed before the subway extension, but at least then you get a semi-permanent transfer facility at Vic Park.

3) Build the SELRT, and convert the Sheppard Subway to an LRT tunnel. I've mentioned this before, but the cost of extending the subway to Downsview as a subway vs extending the line to Downsview as an LRT + doing a conversion of the existing subway to LRT is pretty much the same cost. Build a connector LRT up Dufferin to Finch to connect to the FWLRT and you have a really nice northern crosstown.

Each of those options has its pluses and its negatives. Some are technical, some are political. Option 3 will probably have to wait until Eglinton opens, because right now it's a political non-starter. Option 1 could be framed as a 'cash saving' measure, while Option 2 is a compromise with pro-subway advocates.
Click to expand...

Option 3 seems like the one that people who hate "stub lines" and forced transfers would like best, since it's a long continuous line with no transfers.

I would say a bus to subway transfer is just as bad as an LRT to subway transfer, and even though the bus has no tracks, it can still be pretty permanent if it stays for decades. If we're talking full BRT, it also requires EA, design work, construction, and money spent to build, it's essentially an LRT with different vehicles.
 
gweed123 said:
Haha, your opinion is very much welcome!

I feel that there are three valid short/midterm options for Sheppard East:

1) Build BRT lanes from Consumers to McCowan, with queue jump lanes east of McCowan. West of McCowan needs full lanes, but east of there the ridership will probably be low enough that QJ will do. Obviously the west end may be a problem, but lacking the capital necessary to reconfigure/rebuild the Sheppard/404 interchange to accommodate BRT lanes, queue jump lanes heading over the 404 may be the most cost effective option.

2) Extend the subway to Victoria Park, BRT lanes from Vic Park to McCowan, queue jump lanes east of McCowan. Naturally, the BRT lanes can be completed before the subway extension, but at least then you get a semi-permanent transfer facility at Vic Park.

3) Build the SELRT, and convert the Sheppard Subway to an LRT tunnel. I've mentioned this before, but the cost of extending the subway to Downsview as a subway vs extending the line to Downsview as an LRT + doing a conversion of the existing subway to LRT is pretty much the same cost. Build a connector LRT up Dufferin to Finch to connect to the FWLRT and you have a really nice northern crosstown.

Each of those options has its pluses and its negatives. Some are technical, some are political. Option 3 will probably have to wait until Eglinton opens, because right now it's a political non-starter. Option 1 could be framed as a 'cash saving' measure, while Option 2 is a compromise with pro-subway advocates.
Click to expand...

Considering it may be a while still until the SELRT is built, improving bus service on Sheppard East would still be a help until such a time. But in the long run I think it's better to get LRT in place on the street as soon as possible, especially since the project has been in the works and funded for a while now.

If the subway ever was extended by some godawful circumstance, Option 2 would make the most sense. At least that way you hit the employment node at Consumers, but in total I still can't imagine extending the subway being a viable option for anything other than making the stub and transfer permanent.

Option 3 is still the heavy-money but heavy-benefits case. If connectivity is the name of the game, biting the bullet and extending the tunnel to Downsview as LRT while converting the subway tunnel to LRT and extending up Dufferin to Finch is the option that will give riders the best through-ride experience and also avoid making concessions to Fordite subway advocates.
 
GenerationW said:
That depends. Going two stops to Victoria Park and then BRT the rest of the way would probably be a decent political and financial compromise. We'd be tunneling a good deal of the way to V.P. anyway with the LRT proposal.
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I can already see the problem with this: It stops right at the border of Scarborough. You'll get RoFo types screaming bloody murder about how we've screwed Scarborough yet again.

My other problem is that it is highly likely that in the next 30 years or so the Relief Line will likely be terminating at Sheppard and Don Mills (ML is actually studying an RT on Don Mills right now). If the Relief Line does terminate there, you'll have a transfer mess where someone from Scarborough will have to transfer from the BRT to Sheppard Subway at Victoria Park and then from the Sheppard Subway to the Relief Line at Don Mills.

I think that it's best to just wait and see where the final Relief Line alignment is most likely to end up before making any decisions about extending Sheppard.
 
salsa said:
Exactly. People complain that the Sheppard line gets abysmal ridership, but then they want to extend it further to Victoria Park, and after VP ridership suddenly evaporates to BRT levels.
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The line is ridiculous as is. Metrolinx already said no to converting the line to LRT and no mayor will dare to do that nor close it. There are solutions to this dead end.
(WAYYYY down the road)

Extending to Vic Park and Downsview would make it look less ridiculous in term of ridership. Extending to Downsview and make Sheppard a branch of the Spadina line to Vic Park with lower frequency. (this would be an incentive for those arriving east of Yonge to stay on the train instead of overloading the Yonge line if their train goes downtown.

OR

Keep the Sheppard line as a separate line. Go East to Vic Park and go west to the 400-Jane & Sheppard area with garage facilities for drivers who could exit and park to take the subway. The Spadina line is not at capacity.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
I can already see the problem with this: It stops right at the border of Scarborough. You'll get RoFo types screaming bloody murder about how we've screwed Scarborough yet again.

My other problem is that it is highly likely that in the next 30 years or so the Relief Line will likely be terminating at Sheppard and Don Mills (ML is actually studying an RT on Don Mills right now). If the Relief Line does terminate there, you'll have a transfer mess where someone from Scarborough will have to transfer from the BRT to Sheppard Subway at Victoria Park and then from the Sheppard Subway to the Relief Line at Don Mills.

I think that it's best to just wait and see where the final Relief Line alignment is most likely to end up before making any decisions about extending Sheppard.
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I think the Danforth extension fixed that. People won't care that Sheppard will stop at Victoria Park. They'll have a direct line to the financial district at McCowan or have a shorter bus trip (thanks to BRT) to the Sheppard Line at Vic Park. If the West extension was there, they could go south (if there a Branch system) on the same train.

Besides, wouldn't the the new subway at McCowan & Sheppard decrease the ridership going west on Sheppard past McCowan anyways? Nothing BRT can't handle really

As for waiting for the relief line reaching Sheppard, You and I will be dead before that happens
 
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Solid Snake said:
The line is ridiculous as is. Metrolinx already said no to converting the line to LRT and no mayor will dare to do that nor close it. There are solutions to this dead end.
(WAYYYY down the road)

Extending to Vic Park and Downsview would make it look less ridiculous in term of ridership. Extending to Downsview and make Sheppard a branch of the Spadina line to Vic Park with lower frequency. (this would be an incentive for those arriving east of Yonge to stay on the train instead of overloading the Yonge line if their train goes downtown.

OR

Keep the Sheppard line as a separate line. Go East to Vic Park and go west to the 400-Jane & Sheppard area with garage facilities for drivers who could exit and park to take the subway. The Spadina line is not at capacity.
Click to expand...


Extending the subway to VP and having BRT from there to Scarborough Centre makes much more sense than having the LRT come out from Don Mills.

It would address the stubway status of Sheppard and terminate it in a proper employment node and reduce the overkill of having an LRT to the zoo.
 
Solid Snake said:
As for waiting for the relief line reaching Sheppard, You and I will be dead before that happens
Click to expand...

A bit of an exaggeration for many younger members of this forum I think :)

Those who are in their 20's or younger now could be alive in 50-60 years. 60 years ago the Yonge subway from Union to Eglinton had just opened, so quite a lot can happen in that time.
 
ehlow said:
A bit of an exaggeration for many younger members of this forum I think :)

Those who are in their 20's or younger now could be alive in 50-60 years. 60 years ago the Yonge subway from Union to Eglinton had just opened, so quite a lot can happen in that time.
Click to expand...
But think how old those people are now, who were in their 20s when the TTC announced the Sheppard line from Downsview to Scarborough Centre in 1985? That's almost 30 years ago. Someone who was 25 back then, is 55 now, and will surely be retired before it opens ... and likely dead.
 
We'll all be dead. And so will many of our children (I'm assuming some of you have kids). The thing won't reach Downsview and Scarborough Centre in at least 50 years
 
TheTigerMaster said:
We'll all be dead. And so will many of our children (I'm assuming some of you have kids). The thing won't reach Downsview and Scarborough Centre in at least 50 years
Click to expand...

Just thought Id point out that IF a SELRT happened and IF the Sheppard Subway was converted to LRT.... then SELRT riders could transfer to the Leslie GO station without the needless hassle of transferring at either Don Mills or the theoretical Vic Park.
 
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