Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[MrGoose]

I don't understand what speed and dwell time has to do with floor height and vehicle weight. A subway is heavier, and a maglev is lighter. So we need to make the Eglinton vehicles heavier so they what? VIA Rail has heavy rail with long dwell, and the much lighter REM has a shorter dwell, so make Eglinton vehicles heavier so they dwell differently how?

The vehicle being LRT makes no difference. Some could argue a rocket sled is a light rail vehicle.

The question is, how are they going to operate these vehicles and maintain the infrastructure and vehicles so they remain able to perform to specification. That is the only thing that will actually decide if it is fast or slow or has a short or long dwell time.

Wheel wells.

https://flic.kr/p/cs9nth

They reduce the amount of floor space available for standing and there’s a very narrow corridor for people trying to leave, thus increased dwell times and decreasing capacity.

And their tunnel diameters and station boxes end up being the same as a subway anyways.

So for the same amount spent on station construction and tunnel boring, you have reduced capacity.

And these things are going to get stuck in traffic.

 

[T3G]

And these things are going to get stuck in traffic.

Source?

 

[Northern Light]

Source?

I'm assuming this is discussing Eglinton, where the surface section will stop at traffic lights, they won't be caught in traffic per se; but they may be delayed because of the red light, and the vehicles going the other way. so delayed by traffic rather than in traffic.

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Now, that said, I'm lost on all the this discussion of Eglinton.

This thread is about Sheppard.

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This will not be converted to LRT, and it will not run in a median down Sheppard.

 

[Mount Dennis Resident]

Wheel wells.

https://flic.kr/p/cs9nth

They reduce the amount of floor space available for standing and there’s a very narrow corridor for people trying to leave, thus increased dwell times and decreasing capacity.

And their tunnel diameters and station boxes end up being the same as a subway anyways.

So for the same amount spent on station construction and tunnel boring, you have reduced capacity.

And these things are going to get stuck in traffic.

Yes, get rid of the seats to create more standee space.

Same reason why the wheel wells on buses reduce the seating and standee spaces.

 

[Voltz]

Wheel wells.

https://flic.kr/p/cs9nth

They reduce the amount of floor space available for standing and there’s a very narrow corridor for people trying to leave, thus increased dwell times and decreasing capacity.

And their tunnel diameters and station boxes end up being the same as a subway anyways.

So for the same amount spent on station construction and tunnel boring, you have reduced capacity.

And these things are going to get stuck in traffic.

Passengers don't have to walk through the full length of the wheel bogies to get to the door, and those who don't sit there won't have to at all, and most make their way to the door before the train arrive at their station anyway. Your claims are a bit out there,

Our subway stations are at least 50m longer than the Eglinton LRT underground stations, and the most recently built stations are wider also. And I must have missed the part of the line that will run in mixed traffic.

 

[gwimmer]

Given the long tail track that would be required west of Sheppard West Station to connect Line 4 to Wilson yard, they should extend the line at the surface level with a terminal station beside Downsview Park Station providing direct connection to Barrie G0 line, a second connection to Line 1 and service the future development coming to Downsview Park. area.

 

[Rainforest]

Given the long tail track that would be required west of Sheppard West Station to connect Line 4 to Wilson yard, they should extend the line at the surface level with a terminal station beside Downsview Park Station providing direct connection to Barrie G0 line, a second connection to Line 1 and service the future development coming to Downsview Park. area.

Not a bad idea. But the problem is the distance between the (underground) Allen Road station and the point where the line surfaces.

Although, placing the Line 4's Downsview Park station at the surface level should save some money, even if hald of the length between Sheppard West and Downsview Park is in the tunnel.

 

[Northern Light]

Given the long tail track that would be required west of Sheppard West Station to connect Line 4 to Wilson yard, they should extend the line at the surface level with a terminal station beside Downsview Park Station providing direct connection to Barrie G0 line, a second connection to Line 1 and service the future development coming to Downsview Park. area.

Not a bad idea. But the problem is the distance between the (underground) Allen Road station and the point where the line surfaces.

Although, placing the Line 4's Downsview Park station at the surface level should save some money, even if hald of the length between Sheppard West and Downsview Park is in the tunnel.

I'm not sure what alignment one is envisioning here; but the current area where you see the runway is all being zoned for development and new roads are being put in, as well.

There really isn't sufficient room beside Sheppard, there are a couple of existing streets in the way as well and a couple of Department of National Defense buildings, that are not likely going anywhere anytime soon.

***

Further note, Wilson Yard is south of Sheppard West Station; not west or north, there's no obvious alignment from the connecting track back to Downsview Park Station which is the opposite direction.

If you ran the track to Wilson Yard, skirting the north edge, there really isn't a logical route to the existing GO Station, and its too close for another. Its not incoeivable, I suppose, that you could make a connection to a Wilson GO Station instead (under consideration) ; but you'll be tunneling all the way. You're also over-shooting Wilson Yard by 1.5km.

 

[afransen]

I don't understand what speed and dwell time has to do with floor height and vehicle weight. A subway is heavier, and a maglev is lighter. So we need to make the Eglinton vehicles heavier so they what? VIA Rail has heavy rail with long dwell, and the much lighter REM has a shorter dwell, so make Eglinton vehicles heavier so they dwell differently how?

The vehicle being LRT makes no difference. Some could argue a rocket sled is a light rail vehicle.

The question is, how are they going to operate these vehicles and maintain the infrastructure and vehicles so they remain able to perform to specification. That is the only thing that will actually decide if it is fast or slow or has a short or long dwell time.

Low floor LRVs have more constrained interior layouts to accommodate the bogeys, as well as fewer doors. Both slow circulation, this increasing dwell time.

 

[felix123]

if it was up to me i'd just loop Line 4 and Line 2, but it seems like some transit project will follow this alignment at some point in the future.

i'd much prefer to see another 16km transit line built through the core.

Great point. There's still so little truly rapid transit in the core, and the Ontario line alone won't add much.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Great point. There's still so little truly rapid transit in the core, and the Ontario line alone won't add much.

? The OL will fix the largest gap in rapid transit downtown. the other gaps (i.e. along College, up/down Spadina and Dufferin) are much less stressed. East-west through the core has needed rapid transit for over half a century now. The other corridors would be nice, but are nowhere near as critical and overloaded.

 

[steviej1]

? The OL will fix the largest gap in rapid transit downtown. the other gaps (i.e. along College, up/down Spadina and Dufferin) are much less stressed. East-west through the core has needed rapid transit for over half a century now. The other corridors would be nice, but are nowhere near as critical and overloaded.

The Ontario Line doesn't really provide a strong east/west service.....It stops at Bathurst/King and then takes a turn towards Exhibition, which is stupid and results in a permanent end towards real East/West service at Bathurst. Even most people who live at Liberty Village will just end up taking the 504 Streetcar considering the distance of how much they would have to walk to get to the Ontario Line.

 

[nfitz]

The Ontario Line doesn't really provide a strong east/west service.....It stops at Bathurst/King and then takes a turn towards Exhibition, which is stupid and results in a permanent end towards real East/West service at Bathurst. Even most people who live at Liberty Village will just end up taking the 504 Streetcar considering the distance of how much they would have to walk to get to the Ontario Line.

Carlaw to Bathurst is a decent start. And in the west, I don't know what precludes a permanent stop at Exhibition. The original study area, before they finalized the station locations, went further west to Dufferin, and then turned north to King and Dufferin.

Also the in the east-direction from downtown, they've already shown a plan extending it to the TTC/GO Kipling station in Etobicoke.

 

[felix123]

? The OL will fix the largest gap in rapid transit downtown. the other gaps (i.e. along College, up/down Spadina and Dufferin) are much less stressed. East-west through the core has needed rapid transit for over half a century now. The other corridors would be nice, but are nowhere near as critical and overloaded.

That still doesn't amount to much coverage of the core, and the OL stop spacing is large. Dense sections of the city, like Parkdale and Cabbagetown will remain underserved.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The Ontario Line doesn't really provide a strong east/west service.....It stops at Bathurst/King and then takes a turn towards Exhibition, which is stupid and results in a permanent end towards real East/West service at Bathurst. Even most people who live at Liberty Village will just end up taking the 504 Streetcar considering the distance of how much they would have to walk to get to the Ontario Line.

Perhaps you feel that way but it does offer strong east-west coverage to most major destinations - the beauty of a subway line is that it doesn't have to follow the streetgrid, and therefor existing travel patterns. The "windy" route it takes through the core is done to hit the largest trip generators - keeping it straight along King all the way would have resulted in worse coverage and ridership, not better.

Most people in LV will absolutely take the OL. Remember that the OL will be building the new southern street along LV, which will create more direct pedestrian connections to it. Even Strachan will only be a 5-6 minute walk from the station. The walk to the station is not going to be the same as the walk to Exhibition station today.

Yes, it leaves people up along king / Queen east of Strachan or so too far to easily walk to a station.. but it also picks up a regional GO connection and the Ex Grounds / Ontario PLace in it's catchment area instead, which is more valuable I would say.

I didn't say coverage would be perfect - but it will be decent. Parkdale is a missing major gap in the network for sure, but Cabbagetown is actually a pretty small population area and wouldn't drive ridership that much. It's not actually that dense.

A good chunk of Parkdale could be served by an OL Extension to Jameson as well, of course.