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Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

What matters are the people traveling from "anywhere on the Finch LRT or Vaughan Extension" to "anywhere on the Sheppard LRT". Right now, those people are almost certainly driving on the 401. Sending Sheppard trains south on the Spadina line does nothing for them, or for anyone who would get a faster trip by changing trains to the Yonge line anyway.
What percentage of those travelling south on the Spadina extension would these people be?
 
Interlining makes sense for areas where you have lots of traffic. Interline through downtown, and branch in different directions in the burbs.
Like Eglinton where the expensive underground portion is shared by branches going to??
Maybe one branch along Dixon and one along Eglinton West??
Maybe one branch along Eglinton East and one up Leslie??
It looks like Toronto does not follow this “ruleâ€.
Interlining through the lowest-use section of Line 1 makes no sense, nor would I think there'd be the capacity on Line 1 to support it, where they are already planning to fully utilize the capacity south of Finch West.
But it could make sense if it is utilizing tunnels that are under-utilized. YUS does have capacity to the north, since every other train short turns at Downsview. To the north, there is the capacity of these YUS trains not heading north, and to the south, it could be possible to substitute a Sheppard train in place of a short-turn train.
Running to the transfer point at the Downsview Park GO station might make sense - but you'd still need to run a double set of tracks, as you can't be running a Line 1 train every 2 minutes, and then add in a Line 4 train every 6 minutes (or less, given the likely lack of demand west of Yonge)
Just don’t do every 6 minutes because it won’t divide evenly.
Westbound Sheppard trains every 4 minutes – alternating north and south.
Northbound YUS trains every 2 minutes – alternating north, short-turn, east, short-turn.
Southbound YUS trains every 4 minutes – alternating south and east.
Bit of new track needed, but all constructed on the SW corner of Dufferin – Sheppard with open cut.
I'd think a better solution in an infinite world would be to keep running west from Allen/Sheppard (Sheppard West station aka Downsview Station) under the airport to an additional station at Sheppard/Jane and then north on Jane to Jane/Finch to intersect the LRT. Why run 2 lines together, instead of running them in different places.
Mostly because it is less costly to re-use the tracks for both lines than to build a whole new route.
And the main question it leads to, is what would be the ridership. I have a hard time thinking that it would even be the existing 5,000 an hour on the Sheppard subway, west to Yonge in AM peak.
I’m not sure. I could easily see people continuing to Downsview and south since they would have a guaranteed seat and not transfer. There would also be those going to YorkU and eventually Vaughan Centre.

As Pasternak pushed the TTC to actually study the feasibility of the "North York" relief line, perhaps we'll see some estimated numbers for subway ridership - which should be similar if the service terminated at Downsview or ran through to Vaughan.
This means that minimal riders would continue to YorkU – the largest single transit draw north of 401.
 
What, to make things more expensive? The subway tunnel isn't a particular high expense - about 40 million or so per kilometre for TBM. If you go shallow, you have to excavate the entire road, completely rebuild it, and have to deal with huge utility issues. If you are heading down a major street, it's cheaper to tunnel underneath. Cut-and-cover might make more sense if you were instead to tunnel under a parallel minor street.

Although deep tunnels may be cheap, they become expensive when we actually want them to be used by people. Emergency exits, stations, ventilation are all more complex the deeper one goes, and the TBM's requires deep tunnels. That is why the cost of tunnelling in practical terms is $300M/km to $400M/km.
Cut-and-cover is much shallower, meaning that the entire route is disrupted, but for a much shorter period of time. And the intersections, which are critical for public inconvenience, require a much shorter construction period due to the shallower depth.
 
Are there really that many people traveling from fairview mall or stc to York u or Vaughan??

Are you saying that those in the poorer neighbourhoods near Fairview mall are not motivated or intelligent enough to be going to University?
 
Are you saying that those in the poorer neighbourhoods near Fairview mall are not motivated or intelligent enough to be going to University?

Wow lol. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I'm questioning whether there's enough ridership to justify a subway on the route between Fairview Mall and the Vaughan/York U subway.

Please note what I wrote was:
Are there really that many people traveling from fairview mall or stc to York u or Vaughan??
No where did I say anything like what BurlOak is suggesting.
 
Like Eglinton where the expensive underground portion is shared by branches going to??
Maybe one branch along Dixon and one along Eglinton West??
Maybe one branch along Eglinton East and one up Leslie??

This means that minimal riders would continue to YorkU – the largest single transit draw north of 401.
But where is the demand? Remember that the current express bus along this route carries only 530 people per hour (assuming it's completely full). And hang on - I've taken the Sheppard West bus during AM peak heading west ... most people are heading east away from York, not west.

It's a nice fantasy idea ... but to justify extending the grossly underused Sheppard subway to York University, and screwing up the Spadina subway line in the process where the majority of the demand is not realistic.

Sorry about that. I guess reading posts from Nfitz all day got me in a foul mood.
I've been perfectly civil in this discussion. Simply just because you disagree with me is no reason to start being rude to either of us.
 
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Westbound Sheppard trains every 4 minutes – alternating north and south.
Northbound YUS trains every 2 minutes – alternating north, short-turn, east, short-turn.
Southbound YUS trains every 4 minutes – alternating south and east.
Bit of new track needed, but all constructed on the SW corner of Dufferin – Sheppard with open cut.

This could have been done as a part of Spadina extension. Even then, the layout of the Downsview (Sheppard West) station would be quite complex. The existing station is positioned N-S, and is actually under Sheppard Ave. It would be nearly impossible to route any of the Sheppard trains into that station; they would need another station.

Now, it is no longer possible to connect Sheppard trains to the tunneled Spadina extension, and run them towards York U.

Sending Sheppard trains south may still be technically possible, since the connection can be made on surface (in or near Wilson yard).
 
Now, it is no longer possible to connect Sheppard trains to the tunneled Spadina extension, and run them towards York U.
Sure there is. You follow the plan that was discussed earlier to connect just north of Downsview station, and do a long curve up and around, and back down to Sheppard, heading to Bathurst. Then you add a wye back to York. But Don Mills to Vaughan trains wouldn't stop at Downview.

Not that there'd be any point. You don't design double the service, for the lowest ridership stretch of your busiest subway line.
 
Sure there is. You follow the plan that was discussed earlier to connect just north of Downsview station, and do a long curve up and around, and back down to Sheppard, heading to Bathurst. Then you add a wye back to York. But Don Mills to Vaughan trains wouldn't stop at Downview.

Not that there'd be any point. You don't design double the service, for the lowest ridership stretch of your busiest subway line.

Knowing this twisted priorities of this city, in some bizarre scenario I can almost see it happening.

Now, we all have to come to grips with the fact that Sheppard is just not a subway-capacity corridor and will not be for many, many years. Yet we still have the Sheppard Subway squarely planted in the midst of our rapid transit plans, a white elephant in its entirety, and it will only become moreso if and when the Sheppard East LRT is built. I'm personally of the opinion that extensions of the subway westward will only serve to make it more expensive and painful should we ever choose to put a single mode of rapid transit on Sheppard instead of two and do the right thing; that is, convert the subway to LRT. No other proposa for the corridor is worth more in terms of network connectivity, ease of usage, and appropriate fit for the corridor in question than a through-run LRT from Yonge Street to Meadowvale along Sheppard.

If the political will or technical ingenuity were available, it would be even better to turn the LRT north near Dufferin to Finch, so as to connect to the Finch West LRT and produce a seamless northern crosstown line. The lack of ability to travel along TTC rapid transit across the city, say from an apartment building in Scarborough to an industrial job in Etobicoke, without travelling all the way south to Bloor / Danforth (or within a few years Eglinton) is appalling. A through-run Sheppard LRT connecting to Finch would be a great boon.
 
Knowing this twisted priorities of this city, in some bizarre scenario I can almost see it happening.

Now, we all have to come to grips with the fact that Sheppard is just not a subway-capacity corridor and will not be for many, many years. Yet we still have the Sheppard Subway squarely planted in the midst of our rapid transit plans, a white elephant in its entirety, and it will only become moreso if and when the Sheppard East LRT is built. I'm personally of the opinion that extensions of the subway westward will only serve to make it more expensive and painful should we ever choose to put a single mode of rapid transit on Sheppard instead of two and do the right thing; that is, convert the subway to LRT. No other proposa for the corridor is worth more in terms of network connectivity, ease of usage, and appropriate fit for the corridor in question than a through-run LRT from Yonge Street to Meadowvale along Sheppard.

IMO, spending $670 million to convert the subway to LRT is not justifiable.

If the political will or technical ingenuity were available, it would be even better to turn the LRT north near Dufferin to Finch, so as to connect to the Finch West LRT and produce a seamless northern crosstown line. The lack of ability to travel along TTC rapid transit across the city, say from an apartment building in Scarborough to an industrial job in Etobicoke, without travelling all the way south to Bloor / Danforth (or within a few years Eglinton) is appalling. A through-run Sheppard LRT connecting to Finch would be a great boon.

Through-run Finch West and Finch East LRT will work even better.
 
Sure there is. You follow the plan that was discussed earlier to connect just north of Downsview station, and do a long curve up and around, and back down to Sheppard, heading to Bathurst. Then you add a wye back to York. But Don Mills to Vaughan trains wouldn't stop at Downview.

Not that there'd be any point. You don't design double the service, for the lowest ridership stretch of your busiest subway line.

OK, I see that you are right. Technically this is possible, while financially this is not justifiable.
 
Knowing this twisted priorities of this city, in some bizarre scenario I can almost see it happening.

Now, we all have to come to grips with the fact that Sheppard is just not a subway-capacity corridor and will not be for many, many years. Yet we still have the Sheppard Subway squarely planted in the midst of our rapid transit plans, a white elephant in its entirety, and it will only become moreso if and when the Sheppard East LRT is built. I'm personally of the opinion that extensions of the subway westward will only serve to make it more expensive and painful should we ever choose to put a single mode of rapid transit on Sheppard instead of two and do the right thing; that is, convert the subway to LRT. No other proposa for the corridor is worth more in terms of network connectivity, ease of usage, and appropriate fit for the corridor in question than a through-run LRT from Yonge Street to Meadowvale along Sheppard.

If the political will or technical ingenuity were available, it would be even better to turn the LRT north near Dufferin to Finch, so as to connect to the Finch West LRT and produce a seamless northern crosstown line. The lack of ability to travel along TTC rapid transit across the city, say from an apartment building in Scarborough to an industrial job in Etobicoke, without travelling all the way south to Bloor / Danforth (or within a few years Eglinton) is appalling. A through-run Sheppard LRT connecting to Finch would be a great boon.

Well said. It is absolutely disgusting (but not too shocking, this is Toronto after all, the city where transit goes to die) that there is no crosstown route at the top end of the city. ECLRT will help but it is still too far south.

We all know that conversion of the stubway to LRT, and extending that LRT east (at least for the time being, perhaps a western extension in 25 years) is the answer that will provide such a crosstown route.

Are there any examples where this has been successfully implemented (and welcomed by the community) at a reasonable cost?
 
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