Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[Northern Light]

The subway could switch to undergrpound somewhere between Markham Rd and Tapscott Rd.

While there are tunnels in both scenarios, perhaps a bit less in yours, the cost of property acquisition likely makes it a wash.

Another possibility is connecting the McCowan subway station to Malvern Centre using LRT, and routing that LRT either south of the CP corridor or on the north side of Nugget Ave / McLevin Ave.

This is exactly what's currently being contemplated by the City, as part of the EELRT.

Though not necessarily what will happen.

 

[dowlingm]

The thing the two stop east extension did was confirm subway as mode for central node while continuing as LRT to stay within a reasonable cost-benefit envelope, and leaving the door open to future further extension (subject to a bit more foresight than say the issues connecting Eglinton East LRT to Kennedy Station).

To extend to both Sheppard West and not just McCowan but Conlins (bearing in mind a Sheppard West LRT was not contemplated for Transit City) would make the otherwise difficult cost of converting the Yonge-Don Mills stretch to LRT seem practical and affordable.

The reality is that the SOGR burden (both existing and what new lines impose) is towering and even with Doug Ford spreading largesse there is no room for outright crayoning. People who see this provincial government as likely to spend without limit should recall that a 600 car streetcar/light rail order and lines here and there made transit media headings and it seemed like the McGuinty Liberals would never stop spending either - but the province’s finances couldn’t sustain it and then horizons were narrowed.

 

[NIV]

I believe the urgency for housing will make the sheppard line in whatever form it takes a priority for the province. Future residential intensification of Scarborough needs to be properly planned. The Feds with their 6 billion dollar plan with freedom to build fourplexes in existing neighborhoods isn’t what Scarborough needs. They created this housing crisis, let’s make sure Scarborough doesn’t pay for it. The province is focussed on developing TOC’s which if done right is the way to go. We have an opportunity to get this right and develop these new community hubs with transit in mind. Let’s get it right!

 

[Richard White]

The ROW is 30M wide. In theory, wide enough for tunnel or trench; though you're running between backyards, so people would love that.

The ROW at Street level today:

This is what they did for the Line 2 Extension to Kennedy.

Behind my subdivision and a newly built one along what was the GECo Sub there is a mound where the tunnel is. It worked well at the time but it would be problematic now.

 

[Carlodangez]

I believe the urgency for housing will make the sheppard line in whatever form it takes a priority for the province. Future residential intensification of Scarborough needs to be properly planned. The Feds with their 6 billion dollar plan with freedom to build fourplexes in existing neighborhoods isn’t what Scarborough needs. They created this housing crisis, let’s make sure Scarborough doesn’t pay for it. The province is focussed on developing TOC’s which if done right is the way to go. We have an opportunity to get this right and develop these new community hubs with transit in mind. Let’s get it right!

What confuses (or maybe doesn't but should) me is that a reasonable person can understand that climate change will not be solved by simply improvements in tiny ways. That same person seems to think that the housing crisis can be solved with baby steps. I understand the Marvel-esque hero/villain thing with politicians, but this fourplex thing is too conservative. Single family houses are thought of as evil by some, which is fine, but then fourplexes are someone better by some great degree.

 

[jcam]

Mark did not say Wilson was not feasible, he said storing trains on Line 4 in the tail tracks would be insufficient.

He ialso said, and is correct if Wilson Yard is used that's a lot of eggs in the Wilson Basket, but it is do-able.

He didn't comment on the use of CP's Toronto Yard.

****

Michael all of this has been posted about at length before, use the search function on UT, or google " Term Term Urbantoronto.ca" if you've chosen your terms properly you'll find that virtually every question you ask has been answered previously.

I imagine that additional line 4 cars would be accommodated in the Line 2 MSF planned somewhere north of the YNSE.

 

[Northern Light]

I imagine that additional line 4 cars would be accommodated in the Line 2 MSF planned somewhere north of the YNSE.

You mean Line 1.

and

Unlikely.

The reason Line 4 cars are stored in-line, in the tunnels, is that moving them in/out from Wilson or Davisville proved a hassle that conflicted with loading line 1 and created too many conflicts.

Also, the new yard isn't even funded yet. And unlikely to be large enough for that purpose in addition to storing Line 1 trains.

 

[White Pine]

I only read three pages back, so not sure if this has been noted before... but there's a golf course on Kennedy, maybe that could be a potential yard location. Probably expensive but anywhere else would be too?

 

[dowlingm]

The Feds with their 6 billion dollar plan with freedom to build fourplexes in existing neighborhoods isn’t what Scarborough needs. They created this housing crisis, let’s make sure Scarborough doesn’t pay for it. The province is focussed on developing TOC’s which if done right is the way to go. We have an opportunity to get this right and develop these new community hubs with transit in mind. Let’s get it right!

I’m not sure how you reach this conclusion except through a partisan lens. Yes, the Feds have a part to play in housing by way of first time buyers grants and so on (the Bank of Canada is not directed by the Government of Canada so cannot be honestly said to be “the Feds” in the usual usage)

The province on the other hand holds many levers in housing - LTT, certification of skilled trades, training of skilled trades, PMTSA approvals off the top of my head. A lot of the reasons why the GTA is not just sucking in not just immigration but also rural Ontarians is the rundown of rural facilities such as school mergers and emergency room closures.

Fourplexes provide livable density more so than supertalls with insufficient elevators and paltry nearby open space. The only thing wrong with federal economic incentives for provinces to end yellowbelt is they didn’t happen sooner.

 

[dowlingm]

I imagine that additional line 4 cars would be accommodated in the Line 2 MSF planned somewhere north of the YNSE.

Pretty sure I read somewhere in the past week that the Line 1 YNSE does not have the planned yard in scope for the active construction. I haven’t been following that thread but is that true? If so, it’s a serious impediment to redeveloping Davisville (even if retaining it under towers) and should have been table stakes for Richmond Hill/Markham/York’s demands for this extension.

 

[Rainforest]

While there are tunnels in both scenarios, perhaps a bit less in yours, the cost of property acquisition likely makes it a wash.

Does it? My guesstimate, 25 properties at 10 to 20 million each (on average), thus $250M to $500M in total. Not a huge amount compared to the tunneling and underground stations. Plus some of the land will be unneeded for 2 subway tracks (or LRT tracks), and can be used for other transit needs, or sold back.

This is exactly what's currently being contemplated by the City, as part of the EELRT.

Though not necessarily what will happen.

Interesting; that's a new info, if I got it correctly. All EELRT / Sheppard East LRT maps I've seen earlier, have the LRT tracks on Sheppard, and a branch up Neilson Rd to Malvern Centre.

Using McCowan - Nugget - McLevin (or the land south of the CP line) instead of Sheppard may have some advantages. First, that LRT section will run faster. Much fewer traffic lights on Nugget - McLevin, or none at all in the CP corridor (at Markham Rd, the LRT would go under). Second, no need to branch means a better frequency.

So, if the City is actually thinking of using McCowan - Nugget - McLevin for that portion of LRT, that's a nice surprise.

PS: Someone might say it is a duplication of service, to add an LRT north of Sheppard and still keep a bus on Sheppard. But, a bus will be needed on Sheppard anyway, in order to serve the stretch east of Meadowvale.

 

[Northern Light]

Does it? My guesstimate, 25 properties at 10 to 20 million each (on average), thus $250M to $500M in total. Not a huge amount compared to the tunneling and underground stations. Plus some of the land will be unneeded for 2 subway tracks (or LRT tracks), and can be used for other transit needs, or sold back.

So you want to buy out 27 commerial properties, where people work, resulting in thousands of people losing their jobs? You're going to take part or all of an Amazon warehouse, a Leons, and a public park too!

PS, that'll cost you more than 15M a pop.

Full takings would be equal to 60 hectares of employment lands. Very conservatively 50% more than your high end number, probably more; that also doesn't include any inducements to remain in Toronto and relocate within same rather than close or exit the City.

There's also the issue of the CP line being on a very high emankment at McCowan, while Line 2 is very deep below ground, at a 2% grade it will take some distance for the line to climb to the same height as the CP Corridor.

Then, once it gets there, it would have to go into a tunnel under Tapscott to reach Malvern Town Centre.

Interesting; that's a new info, if I got it correctly. All EELRT / Sheppard East LRT maps I've seen earlier, have the LRT tracks on Sheppard, and a branch up Neilson Rd to Malvern Centre.

Using McCowan - Nugget - McLevin (or the land south of the CP line) instead of Sheppard may have some advantages. First, that LRT section will run faster. Much fewer traffic lights on Nugget - McLevin, or none at all in the CP corridor (at Markham Rd, the LRT would go under). Second, no need to branch means a better frequency.

So, if the City is actually thinking of using McCowan - Nugget - McLevin for that portion of LRT, that's a nice surprise.

The City is considering (for the EELRT) Sheppard to Nielson, up Nielson, back down Neilson, then Sheppard to McCowan station on the SSE.

Possibly one route, or maybe 2 routes (broken at Malvern)

 

[Rainforest]

The City is considering (for the EELRT) Sheppard to Nielson, up Nielson, back down Neilson, then Sheppard to McCowan station on the SSE.

Possibly one route, or maybe 2 routes (broken at Malvern)

I can't imagine a single route diverting from Sheppard up Neilson to Malvern Centre, then returning back to Sheppard. That would add at least 10 minuntes to the trip between the Sheppard / MCowan subway station and the points east of Neilson. And then, a regular mixed-traffic all-stop bus that stays on Sheppard would be faster than the LRT.

Pretty sure that if the LRT operates on Sheppard, then Malvern Centre will be served by a branch. Definitely, there will be a branch that connects Malvern Centre to Sheppard / MCowan. I am not sure about other branch(es): Sheppard / MCowan to UTSC and Kennedy, or Malvern Centre to UTSC and Kennedy, or both of those.

 

[Northern Light]

I can't imagine a single route diverting from Sheppard up Neilson to Malvern Centre, then returning back to Sheppard. That would add at least 10 minuntes to the trip between the Sheppard / MCowan subway station and the points east of Neilson. And then, a regular mixed-traffic all-stop bus that stays on Sheppard would be faster than the LRT.

Pretty sure that if the LRT operates on Sheppard, then Malvern Centre will be served by a branch. Definitely, there will be a branch that connects Malvern Centre to Sheppard / MCowan. I am not sure about other branch(es): Sheppard / MCowan to UTSC and Kennedy, or Malvern Centre to UTSC and Kennedy, or both of those.

Something entirely different is being looked at.............but its too early..........

 

[CapitalSeven]

Since this discussion is going in a loop, I'll repeat the "what about" concerning the huge and difficult to repurpose empty section of the rail yard located to the north-east.