Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[Rainforest]

I believe the final configuration of Line 4 is most likely to be Sheppard West Station on Line 1 to McCowan Station on the SSE.

I find it highly improbable it will extend beyond either point; though it is not inconceivable it could make a veer out to provide a station in Malvern.

Isn't that the downside of keeping the existing rolling stock on Sheppard? If we want it to be a crosstown line, or perhaps a cross-region line, then a lighter / more agile technology would probably work better. The line could connect to the Lakeshore East GO in the east, and reach Pearson and/or Mississauga Centre in the west.

The cost of converting the existing 5.5 km is constant, while the saving on the new sections is incremental. More length, greater amount of saving. If the total length is 35-40 km, then the saving should outweight the conversion cost.

However, I understand the political obstacles to conversion. It is hard for any government to commit to a 30+ km line at once. Short extensions are easier to fund, but then the benefit of conversion isn't realized until it is too late. Once we have a full-fledged subway from McCowan to Sheppard West, noone is going to convert it to something else.

 

[SashaLemon]

Isn't that the downside of keeping the existing rolling stock on Sheppard? If we want it to be a crosstown line, or perhaps a cross-region line, then a lighter / more agile technology would probably work better. The line could connect to the Lakeshore East GO in the east, and reach Pearson and/or Mississauga Centre in the west.

The cost of converting the existing 5.5 km is constant, while the saving on the new sections is incremental. More length, greater amount of saving. If the total length is 35-40 km, then the saving should outweight the conversion cost.

However, I understand the political obstacles to conversion. It is hard for any government to commit to a 30+ km line at once. Short extensions are easier to fund, but then the benefit of conversion isn't realized until it is too late. Once we have a full-fledged subway from McCowan to Sheppard West, noone is going to convert it to something else.

This is the reason I keep pitching CDPQ Infra. The Ontario government would not have to pay for the whole thing.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

The 407 ROW is the other corridor being examined; though it might not be strictly adhered to in all locations.

When I say examined, it really isn't getting any detailed thought at all right now (last I heard) ; its just a high-level idea being tossed around.

The new Provinicial map suggests a change in direction, but there IS an ea with a full design for the BRT version of 407, and intended for convertibility to almost fully grade separated LRT.

 

[afransen]

I'm not sure if this is a hot take, but extending our rapid transit into the suburbs is a terrible idea to me. Toronto can't even properly serve itself, and we want to extend our rapid transit into the suburbs? That's something GO can worry about.

Practically speaking, the province is bankrolling any major expansion.

 

[afransen]

I believe the final configuration of Line 4 is most likely to be Sheppard West Station on Line 1 to McCowan Station on the SSE.

Feels like it will continue to be a stubway to nowhere in this configuration. The transfer at McCowan is absurd.

 

[Northern Light]

The new Provinicial map suggests a change in direction, but there IS an ea with a full design for the BRT version of 407, and intended for convertibility to almost fully grade separated LRT.

This is the most recent map for public consumption:

29 is the new crosstown route, conceptually, and mostly follows the 407 corridor across the top, but then ducks down the 403 corridor in the west and then goes past it to the 407 before ducking south; while in the east it ducks down along the 413.

 

[Northern Light]

Feels like it will continue to be a stubway to nowhere in this configuration. The transfer at McCowan is absurd.

I don't think 'Stubway' would be a reasonable characterization at all. That would imply that it were short; but this route would be 17km long. So........not really a stubway.

What we might debate is whether we should stay rigidly tethered to the grid, following Sheppard whether or not that makes the most sense.

I like starting with a 'grid base' as it makes it easy for people to understand how to get from one point to another, and makes building it slightly more straight-forward; but I don't really understand the Toronto aversion
to actually diverting off-grid to hit key nodes.

When you get to eastern Scarborough there are several nodes of high volume, high ridership potential nodes. You can't hit all of them with one subway or LRT, but its certainly worth asking if we could hit one or more.

A diversion to the north, east of McCowan can hit Malvern, which is obviously a dense population cluster, it could stop there, or continue due east 3.5km to hit the Zoo. The downside there is that Zoo's traffic is very seasonal and also tends to be very limited in evenings; it would also have to cut a swath across environmentally sensitive lands.

Alternatively, one could hit Malvern and still divert back south-east to hit UTSC.

Or, one could ignore Malvern entirely; and head south-east, west of Mc Cowan to hit SCC, then due east to hit Centennial and UTSC.

We have a while to lobby for our preferred options, funding is not imminent.

 

[T3G]

The Suburbs are part of Toronto, and I think the idea would be to build transit first and then build high density development around it. That is what they do in places like Singapore and Hong Kong. The Montreal REM is playing this exact card as well.

The suburbs are not part of Toronto, they are their own individual towns/cities and this should be dealt with accordingly. We have transit like GO whose express purpose is to serve the commuter belt around Toronto, I see no reason to extend local transit devised for serving Toronto way beyond our boundaries. A bus into Mississauga or York, maybe, but extending a subway into the suburbs has always been a ludicrous option. And what is the cut off point? As we see with Yonge North, everyone not living in Toronto seems to want their own piece of the pie. Do we keep saying yes to each of them until we - or, more accurately, our great grandchildren - find ourselves at the opening of the Line 1 extension to Barrie?

Why do all of these people want a subway anyway? The subway makes local stops and the journey would hardly be faster than taking the car. What time savings will be found, for example, by taking the 1 from Richmond Hill to Union instead of taking the GO train, which has much less stops and can achieve much higher top speeds before the next station forces it to brake?

Practically speaking, the province is bankrolling any major expansion.

That doesn't mean they should have any say in how that money is used though. The biggest problem with transit in this city is that politicians play act as transit planners and get to throw their weight around and push their vision through even if it doesn't make any sense, like the use of the ICTS technology on the Scarborough RT in place of the infinitely more reliable CLRVs which were originally supposed to run there.

Opening a chequebook doesn't make a politician knowledgeable about transit, or what mode is most appropriate to run in that section. The insistence on pushing subways everywhere stinks of Scarborough Subway style populism.

 

[afransen]

A parochial approach to regional transportation planning is not helpful, and thankfully I think we're moving past it.

 

[afransen]

This is the most recent map for public consumption:

View attachment 421682

View attachment 421683

29 is the new crosstown route, conceptually, and mostly follows the 407 corridor across the top, but then ducks down the 403 corridor in the west and then goes past it to the 407 before ducking south; while in the east it ducks down along the 413.

I'm not sure why that plan is shared in such an inscrutable way. Is the 29 and 30 line interlining along the 407? 30 acting as local service and 29 as express?

 

[T3G]

Is it parochial to recognize that local transit and regional transit are generally incompatible, and trying to serve both markets will result in a service that screws over one or the other, if not both? Why have GO buses when we could just run TTC routes out into the sticks and offer a one seat ride?

 

[Northern Light]

Is the 29 and 30 line interlining along the 407? 30 acting as local service and 29 as express?

I don't know if that's the envisioned service plan; but clearly they are imagining that the Ontario Line loop overlaps the new E-W crosstown that would follow the 407/403/407 further east and west.

But lets be clear, we're nowhere near an EA, nor funding........and these are pretty much just high-concept lines on a map (or fantasy if you prefer); the only tangible thing in them is that the 407 ROW mostly has sufficient room for this proposal, and I imagine the 403 segment is envisioned and taking over the Mississauga Transitway corridor.

Right now though, this has less substance behind it than GO ALRT once did, or Network 2011. That's not to say it won't happen, but certainly service patterns and exact routing are a long way from definitive.

 

[afransen]

Is it parochial to recognize that local transit and regional transit are generally incompatible, and trying to serve both markets will result in a service that screws over one or the other, if not both? Why have GO buses when we could just run TTC routes out into the sticks and offer a one seat ride?

Local transit needs don't end at municipal boundaries.

 

[ericmacm]

Is it parochial to recognize that local transit and regional transit are generally incompatible, and trying to serve both markets will result in a service that screws over one or the other, if not both? Why have GO buses when we could just run TTC routes out into the sticks and offer a one seat ride?

Yes, it is, especially in the context of Toronto. If the cities surrounding Toronto were more isolated like they were back in the 1980s, then it would make sense to treat them differently. However, the reality on the ground today is that what is considered "Toronto" has expanded greatly from the core, where the municipal boundaries don't really matter and commuter patterns are becoming increasingly decentralized. Today's suburbs are well on their way to becoming tomorrow's major secondary cores, and this is something that cannot be ignored if you want a functional region in the future. Yes, Toronto proper still requires many new transit lines, but the reality is that the vast bulk of the regional growth is in the 905. The density push in Mississauga, Brampton, Vaughan, Markham, Durham Region, and Richmond Hill is massive and cannot be understated. All will eventually play host to increased commercial density and people will work in these places, not just in downtown Toronto. Transit needs to prepare for this inevitability.

Transit planning cannot be done in a vacuum.

 

[afransen]

I don't know if that's envisioned service plan; but clearly they are imagining that the Ontario Line loop overlaps the new E-W crosstown that would follow the 407/403/407 further east and west.

But lets be clear, we're nowhere near an EA, nor funding........and these are pretty much just high-concept lines on a map (or fantasy if you prefer); the only tangible thing in them is that the 407 ROW mostly has sufficient room for this proposal, and I imagine the 403 segment is envisioned and taking over the Mississauga Transitway corridor.

Right now though, this has less substance behind it than GO ALRT once did, or Network 2011. That's not to say it won't happen, but certainly service patterns and exact routing are a long way from definitive.

It is an odd exercise in crayoning. I think it would be helpful if government actually had a proper regional transportation plan that actually planned out the long term network design and associated land use etc. It seems like we only engage in incremental and ad hoc planning.