Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[afransen]

Why are we building a BRT to STC on Elllesmere, then?

I'm just frustrated with the lack of big picture/network planning that happens in Toronto. Sheppard east of McCowan doesn't have a lot going on and that isn't likely to change, certainly nothing that would justify more than BRT/LRT. No $1bn/km subway extensions will be justified.

 

[ARG1]

Why are we building a BRT to STC on Elllesmere, then?

I'm just frustrated with the lack of big picture/network planning that happens in Toronto. Sheppard east of McCowan doesn't have a lot going on and that isn't likely to change, certainly nothing that would justify more than BRT/LRT. No $1bn/km subway extensions will be justified.

So that it can serve vital destinations such as UTSC?

Not to mention there are many benefits to terminating at Sheppard-McCowan, such as having a more consistent regional transit network. If you terminate the Sheppard Line there, you allow for direct bus -> subway transfers so if you're travelling from Markham to NYC, you can take that. And also you can create a nice transit junction there, LRT to the east, Subway to the South and West, and possibly BRT to the north.

 

[afransen]

So that it can serve vital destinations such as UTSC?

Not to mention there are many benefits to terminating at Sheppard-McCowan, such as having a more consistent regional transit network. If you terminate the Sheppard Line there, you allow for direct bus -> subway transfers so if you're travelling from Markham to NYC, you can take that. And also you can create a nice transit junction there, LRT to the east, Subway to the South and West, and possibly BRT to the north.

Should that BRT not be going to Sheppard/McCowan? Or are we trying to build transfer city instead?

Won't folks from Markham be steered toward the Stouffville line and transfer at Agincourt GO?

 

[M II A II R II K]

It should be extended to Rouge Hill to act as the only regional uptown commuter line.

 

[nfitz]

Should that BRT not be going to Sheppard/McCowan? Or are we trying to build transfer city instead?

Won't that add an unnecessary 401 crossing? Would it even stop between UTS and STC? Local service on Sheppard would be the LRT to UTS; I don't see much point building LRT and BRT on the same route; rapid transit on both routes would be better.

 

[afransen]

It should be extended to Rouge Hill to act as the only regional uptown commuter line.

I think that's a good idea. But going via STC and Ellesmere hits a lot more trip generators. Sheppard east of McCowan is low density and a lot of undevelopable land.

 

[afransen]

Won't that add an unnecessary 401 crossing? Would it even stop between UTS and STC? Local service on Sheppard would be the LRT to UTS; I don't see much point building LRT and BRT on the same route; rapid transit on both routes would be better.

I thought we wanted to make Sheppard McCowan the transit hub for Scarborough. Splitting it between Sheppard/McCowan and STC just causes unnecessary transfers, which hurts travel time and mode share. There is a whole lot of nothing at Sheppard McCowan today, I don't see why it makes sense for that to be built up as a hub as opposed to the existing hub at STC which is already a major destination.

 

[ARG1]

Should that BRT not be going to Sheppard/McCowan? Or are we trying to build transfer city instead?

Won't folks from Markham be steered toward the Stouffville line and transfer at Agincourt GO?

Regardless of where you put the line, someone is going to lose, there is no pleasing everyone. There will be LRT on Sheppard, there will be BRT on Ellesmere. Both of these services serve different markets and have their own goals.

Let's say someone lives in Markham at McCowan and Denison. In order for them to reach to North York Centre in your scenerio. They would have to either: Take the bus down to sheppard, transfer to a bus/lrt to Agincourt, and then transfer AGAIN to continue straight, or transfer to the Steeles bus, ride 2 stops down the Stouffville Line, then transfer to Sheppard Line. Either way you're making what is effectively in your words: "Transfer City". The only thing at Agincourt is the GO Station, not a GO station and a crossing arterial with bus routes (the line is close to Kennedy, but not that close), as such the only people this arrangement doesn't hurt is people who are transferring from the Stouffville Line.

The only real difference between both options at the end of the day is how much the one to STC deviates from the established grid, and how it does so in a very ugly fashion (this isn't the Ontario Line where it shifts over by a few blocks). When we consider the fact that transferring from STC to Sheppard is a sidestep of 2km (as in you have to travel 2km up the grid in order to use the other service), I think its justifiable. Similarly, if we ever extend Finch West to Yonge, I don't think its unjustifiable that people would have to transfer to Line 1, then transfer again to Line 4 to continue east. Its not the cleanest situation, however I don't think its bad enough that you have to raise your hands and make a big fuss over it and justify awkward grid breaks.

 

[kEiThZ]

Why are we building a BRT to STC on Elllesmere, then?

Mostly to connect UTS and Rouge hospital.

I'm just frustrated with the lack of big picture/network planning that happens in Toronto. Sheppard east of McCowan doesn't have a lot going on and that isn't likely to change, certainly nothing that would justify more than BRT/LRT. No $1bn/km subway extensions will be justified.

Ironically, that is what makes Sheppard great for BRT. They don't need full BRT per se. Just curbside bus lanes so that all the feeder buses from Malvern can get to McCowan quicker.


Keep in mind that Ellesmere and Sheppard aren't competing corridors. They serve two different catchments. Sheppard north of the 401. Ellesmere south of the 401.

 

[nfitz]

I thought we wanted to make Sheppard McCowan the transit hub for Scarborough.

Did we? I doubt many on the Durham BRT are going to be doing much else than getting on Line 2 southbound - at least those still on the bus after it leaves UTS - which surely would also be a Scarborough hub.

Kennedy should also remain a hub with access to GO.

 

[afransen]

Mostly to connect UTS and Rouge hospital.



Ironically, that is what makes Sheppard great for BRT. They don't need full BRT per se. Just curbside bus lanes so that all the feeder buses from Malvern can get to McCowan quicker.


Keep in mind that Ellesmere and Sheppard aren't competing corridors. They serve two different catchments. Sheppard north of the 401. Ellesmere south of the 401.

Why not just extend that Sheppard BRT to connect with Line 2 at McCowan and Line 4 at Brimley or Midland (wherever the last station is before dipping south to STC)? I don't see subway service ever making sense east of McCowan on Sheppard, but it will eventually make sense on Ellesmere. And if we don't intend to ever extend Line 4, why not just connect as an extension of Line 2. A transfer at McCowan and Sheppard is just nonsensical.

 

[asher__jo]

Did we? I doubt many on the Durham BRT are going to be doing much else than getting on Line 2 southbound - at least those still on the bus after it leaves UTS - which surely would also be a Scarborough hub.

Kennedy should also remain a hub with access to GO.

Scarborough can and should accommodate two hubs, not having one with huge amounts of density at STC would be silly. And one is needed because 2 subway lines will be dumping and collecting riders are McCowan.

 

[Cobra]

Why can't STC & McCowan BOTH be their own hubs the same way Sheppard-Yonge and Finch are on Yonge street? I see STC (city centre - not just the mall) being it's own downtown from Sheppard to STC mall area while being served by 2 subway stops.

Also, that's a lot of bus routes no longer needing to cross the 401.

 

[allengeorge]

Building on the above, is it a really dumb idea for a potential Sheppard line to curve downwards to STC? That way both STC and Sheppard/Mcowen are served by two different lines. I’m sure there are lots of network/engineering downsides I’m missing.

 

[CapitalSeven]