Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[afransen]

Indeed. The existence of Line 4 is actually a blocker for creating a more reasonable rapid transit solution from NYCC to STC. It would be kind of sad if we spent the probably $8B+ on extending Line 4 to McCowan instead of building 25km of lighter Skytrain type, largely elevated RT that could basically blanket Scarborough. Maybe we should give Line 4 the Eglinton subway treatment and just mothball it and fill it with sand!

 

[Rainforest]

Is that the path of least resistance tho? I'd say the resistor is money, as it always is. And for a project like this it requires a heckuva lot of it. YNSE is the highest per km project cost not just in the GTA, but likely the world. Extending Sheppard, whenever that happens since it's unfunded, would be more than that. Think about it.

You know how in other threads ppl will claim Yonge south of Bloor can handle 60k pphpd. It can't, but let's pretend. A line like Sheppard with its large, safe, modern stations should be able to handle a lot more than 60k pphpd using the same logic. Meanwhile the projected demand is ~5k pphpd.

So most expensive project in the world. With 10x the capacity than is needed. And there's no money for it. Seems like the path of least resistance would be to not extend as the current setup.

Thinking big picture, changing to a more agile technology for this corridor is a money saver. Outer sections can be constructed for less, and that can offset the cost of refitting the existing 5.5 km.

But if one looks at the next step alone, then the long-term saving from the more appropriate technology is a hypothetical future benefit, while the cost of conversion is immediate. Let's assume they just want to extend from Don Mills to McCowan as the next phase. That project alone is cheaper if they retain the existing technology, and that's what they will likely choose.

But then we will have a 14 km-long line that uses the existing technology. Now, any conversion is both more expensive (more km) and more tedious (temporarily losing a line that has gained a greater usage) than if that was done while the line was just 5.5 km long. Thus, any new extension uses the existing technology, or the extension doesn't happen at all.

That's what I mean talking about the government chosing the path of least resistance (and thus delivering suboptimal results in the long run).

 

[W. K. Lis]

They should redesign the Scarborough Centre Station(s) to be terminal stations (plural) for BOTH Line 2 Bloor-Danforth and Line 4 Sheppard.

From link.

The "McCowan Road and Sheppard Avenue" Station would be a "temporary" terminal station for Line 2. After the Line 4 is extended eastward, it could use the portion between Scarborough Centre Station and "McCowan Road and Sheppard Avenue" Station, continuing westward to Sheppard-Yonge Station.

 

[11th]

Indeed. The existence of Line 4 is actually a blocker for creating a more reasonable rapid transit solution from NYCC to STC. It would be kind of sad if we spent the probably $8B+ on extending Line 4 to McCowan instead of building 25km of lighter Skytrain type, largely elevated RT that could basically blanket Scarborough. Maybe we should give Line 4 the Eglinton subway treatment and just mothball it and fill it with sand!

I think that is pure hypothetical as there never was a plan to build 25km of light metro all over Scarborough while there is one for a subway on Sheppard since at least the 80s.

 

[DirectionNorth]

I think that is pure hypothetical as there never was a plan to build 25km of light metro all over Scarborough while there is one for a subway on Sheppard since at least the 80s.

That's the point, we plan for expensive tunneled subways for the sake of subways, instead of planning a transit network.

 

[afransen]

I think that is pure hypothetical as there never was a plan to build 25km of light metro all over Scarborough while there is one for a subway on Sheppard since at least the 80s.

Is that a failure of our collective imagination?

If the plan is to force a transfer anyway when travelling from STC to NYCC, and the OL is almost assuredly going to be extended to Don Mills Station/Fairview, making that an interchange station anyway, maybe we should extend Sheppard with dissimilar technology, do it above ground, and build 15-25km of rapid transit instead of a stubway to McCowan. Why not build something that actually goes to STC directly, continues to UTSC and even out to Port Union/Rouge Hill GO or Pickering. In some ways Don Mills Station is a natural interchange station being well located for highway bus routes.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Thinking big picture, changing to a more agile technology for this corridor is a money saver. Outer sections can be constructed for less, and that can offset the cost of refitting the existing 5.5 km.

But if one looks at the next step alone, then the long-term saving from the more appropriate technology is a hypothetical future benefit, while the cost of conversion is immediate. Let's assume they just want to extend from Don Mills to McCowan as the next phase. That project alone is cheaper if they retain the existing technology, and that's what they will likely choose.

But then we will have a 14 km-long line that uses the existing technology. Now, any conversion is both more expensive (more km) and more tedious (temporarily losing a line that has gained a greater usage) than if that was done while the line was just 5.5 km long. Thus, any new extension uses the existing technology, or the extension doesn't happen at all.

That's what I mean talking about the government chosing the path of least resistance (and thus delivering suboptimal results in the long run).

I hate how right you are.

I really hope there's some kind of leadership internally from MX on this issue. If left to their own devices, political leadership will just push this Line 4 extension forward, consequences be damned.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Is that a failure of our collective imagination?

Yes. Toronto knows two things: LRT and big hulking subways. I hope the elevated sections of the Ontario Line will change that.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Or have the Ontario Line north go east when it gets to Sheppard and have an interchange at Don Mills so Line 4 doesn't have to be redone.

 

[ARG1]

Indeed. The existence of Line 4 is actually a blocker for creating a more reasonable rapid transit solution from NYCC to STC. It would be kind of sad if we spent the probably $8B+ on extending Line 4 to McCowan instead of building 25km of lighter Skytrain type, largely elevated RT that could basically blanket Scarborough. Maybe we should give Line 4 the Eglinton subway treatment and just mothball it and fill it with sand!

The problem I have is the assumption that Line 4 can't do any of those things. The reason why the Ontario Line needs to be built with the technology its being built with is because it has navigate through extremely tight curves in a downtown core where there is little to no breathing room. Meanwhile Line 4 is in a sprawling suburban area you're going to have vast station spacing where you have plenty of room to raise the line from the ground to an elevated guideway, and likely enough room to have gentler curves going south to meat STC if that's ultimately the goal (although I still disagree that Line 4 should be doing that).

 

[Deadpool X]

Costs of this extension can be brought down without changing the technology. We don't need huge cavernous 6 car stations. Small 4 car length stations should be good enough for next 50 years on this line. If demand exceeds the capacity, the signalling can always be changed to allow tighter 90 second headways.

 

[afransen]

The problem I have is the assumption that Line 4 can't do any of those things. The reason why the Ontario Line needs to be built with the technology its being built with is because it has navigate through extremely tight curves in a downtown core where there is little to no breathing room. Meanwhile Line 4 is in a sprawling suburban area you're going to have vast station spacing where you have plenty of room to raise the line from the ground to an elevated guideway, and likely enough room to have gentler curves going south to meat STC if that's ultimately the goal (although I still disagree that Line 4 should be doing that).

Line 4 extension has to be at least partially underground because you can't get it over the 404 from Don Mills. So we'll be TBMing for at least half the distance to McCowan. But who are we kidding, it will be underground the whole way and cost $1bn/km. And still not go to STC.

That $8bn could be deployed much more effectively to improve rapid transit in Scarborough. The only argument I can sort of see for extending Line 4 is westward to Downsview, to improve train deployability for Line 1. But that probably won't happen this century due to the absurd expensive for marginal transit benefit.

Also kind of wondering why we are even contemplating Line 4 extension when you could use that $8bn to bring OL to Markham, etc. etc.

 

[M II A II R II K]

And will they ever actually densify Sheppard with midrises and more side streets to actually warrant it having a subway so it’s not just a subway through nowhere with bus connections in between.

 

[44 North]

But if one looks at the next step alone, then the long-term saving from the more appropriate technology is a hypothetical future benefit, while the cost of conversion is immediate. Let's assume they just want to extend from Don Mills to McCowan as the next phase. That project alone is cheaper if they retain the existing technology, and that's what they will likely choose.

I haven't seen evidence that an extension of Line 4 from Don Mills to McCowan is cheaper than a different subway option. On the contrary.

I think that is pure hypothetical as there never was a plan to build 25km of light metro all over Scarborough while there is one for a subway on Sheppard since at least the 80s.

A light metro across Scarbo was the OG. It goes back to the 60s! Then carries on for two more decades. There are dozens of maps that show this.

 

[Aplus23]

May I ask why would someone want the proposed Sheppard LRT to go directly to STC instead of Sheppard n McCowan where they're currently building a station. The difference between Sheppard n McCowan and the STC is gonna be like 5-7minute difference factoring in the transfere