Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[Bureaucromancer]

I really don't care who i speak for i just said that it's been suggested many times on here and on the thread for the shepherd LRT that we should just rip everything up and change the line completely for no good reason

You also said that no one would be convinced of the merits of a mode change.

I for one am extremely uncomfortable with both abandoning the SRT ROW through STC (oof, that’s a lot of acronyms) and a Shepard alignment that misses Centennial College, Centenary Hospital and UTSC.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

You also said that no one would be convinced of the merits of a mode change.

I for one am extremely uncomfortable with both abandoning the SRT ROW through STC (oof, that’s a lot of acronyms) and a Shepard alignment that misses Centennial College, Centenary Hospital and UTSC.

There's a big difference between changing over the SRT then reguaging a line after building an extension of it that uses a different type of vehicle it would be like if after the SRT was built they decided to close down the Bloor Danforth line to change it over to use the same system as the SRT. People argue all of the time on here about having to change types of vehicles at forced transfers i really don't see how changing the type of vehicle for one line that is connected to one already is necessary. I don't buy the argument about coat of vechles as that would be something that is factored into the addition to the line. When the extension to Vaughan was built the cost of additional Toronto Rocket trains was factored into it and the same with the extension of the younge side of the line as well.

 

[GenerationW]

I don't see there ever being enough political will for a Sheppard conversion. Shelley Carroll, once a supporter of the SELRT, is now all-in for a subway extension.

 

[44 North]

There's a big difference between changing over the SRT then reguaging a line after building an extension of it that uses a different type of vehicle it would be like if after the SRT was built they decided to close down the Bloor Danforth line to change it over to use the same system as the SRT. People argue all of the time on here about having to change types of vehicles at forced transfers i really don't see how changing the type of vehicle for one line that is connected to one already is necessary. I don't buy the argument about coat of vechles as that would be something that is factored into the addition to the line. When the extension to Vaughan was built the cost of additional Toronto Rocket trains was factored into it and the same with the extension of the younge side of the line as well.

I haven't seen anyone mention cost of vehicles as an issue, because it's not really an issue.

I don't see there ever being enough political will for a Sheppard conversion. Shelley Carroll, once a supporter of the SELRT, is now all-in for a subway extension.

Would still be a subway, and an extension of a subway. Can't say I've seen conversion of the line to a smaller-scaled subway, ICTS, or even extended as simply 4-car Toronto Rocket for that matter presented by TTC or discussed at City Hall. It's always been LRT or 6-car subway.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I haven't seen anyone mention cost of vehicles as an issue, because it's not really an issue.

There have been several people who have suggested that it would be cheap to extend the line using something else other than the Toronto Rocket trains. One person even suggested that trucking trains to the maintenance facility for the Ontario line would be done in the short term until the rest of the shepherd line is converted to standard gauge. People who post here seem to think that there is a big problem with TTC gauge and that it somehow costs more to have things built for it, different gauges don't add to the cost of building trains as significantly as what people seem to think they do.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

I think you are chalking up too much of the interest in alternate tech to (track) gauge. The case for a lighter technology on an extension is exactly the same as it is for the Ontario line, and largely amounts to the cost of a smaller loading gauge and the acceptability of its associated elevated structures.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I think you are chalking up too much of the interest in alternate tech to gauge. The case for a lighter technology on an extension is exactly the same as it is for the Ontario line.

Why would you extend an existing subway line with another type of technology to have to replace it for no reason at all. It would be like if they said that the line from Finch isn't going to be using the same subway trains as the rest of line 1. It makes no logical sense at all.

 

[ARG1]

I think you are chalking up too much of the interest in alternate tech to (track) gauge. The case for a lighter technology on an extension is exactly the same as it is for the Ontario line, and largely amounts to the cost of a smaller loading gauge and the acceptability of its associated elevated structures.

What makes the Ontario Line need the separate technology is the fact that it needs to make far tighter curves and grades than the legacy subway network.

Sheppard is unlikely to face such restrictions, and as such I see no reason to regauge the line. Running an elevated line with the existing rolling stock should be more than doable.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Sheppard is unlikely to face such restrictions, and as such I see no reason to regauge the line. Running an elevated line with the existing rolling stock should be more than doable.

At the end of the day I actually agree with your second point, but the closest thing to official word on why we can't use the SRT ROW or go elevated is the supposed unsuitability of our full metro tech to the existing corridor.

Honestly, given a completely free hand I'd be inclined to extend with TTC standard loading gauge but two car platforms provisioned for extension to four and with full moving block ATC (but also recall that I am rather fond of through routing a western extension up to Vaughan).

I've also been contemplating the potential of leaving Sheppard as such be, btu integrating with an Ontario line extension...

It's not my first choice of network architecture, but interesting in the context of whatever Metrolinx is imagining their 407 loop Ontario Line thing to be. Really though I think the real killer on this is that creating such a short stretch of combined operation is just a thoroughly terrible idea for overall system reliability.

 

[44 North]

There have been several people who have suggested that it would be cheap to extend the line using something else other than the Toronto Rocket trains. One person even suggested that trucking trains to the maintenance facility for the Ontario line would be done in the short term until the rest of the shepherd line is converted to standard gauge. People who post here seem to think that there is a big problem with TTC gauge and that it somehow costs more to have things built for it, different gauges don't add to the cost of building trains as significantly as what people seem to think they do.

I don't think gauge is an associated with costs (there's likely a smidge but nothing to write home about). It's about sharing a system, and taking advantage of the supposed ~150% greater capacity that's touted for OL. We can use those same cost-savings advantages (i.e smaller stations) to a Sheppard extension. So if OL is 100m trains/stations vis a vis a 140m TR (35k pphpd), Sheppard could be 40m trains/stations. They're better at handling grades and turns? Take advantage of that too and perhaps use Line 3's ROW.

Another alternative would be extending Sheppard as 3-car TTC legacy subways. Good too. But arguably less so than something a bit more nimble. If plans backtracked and Line 3 was to be upgraded to Innovia Mk4, consider that too.

Basically anything other than a 6-car TTC train. It's just so massively overbuilt to do that and is the leading reason the line was cut short at the outset, and has remained that way. Didn't reach Vic Pk, nor SC, nor Downsview. Sure some will claim it's a conspiracy by the elites to deprive the outer 416 of subways. But it's not. It's costs of building such oversized infrastructure.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I don't think gauge is an associated with costs (there's likely a smidge but nothing to write home about). It's about sharing a system, and taking advantage of the supposed ~150% greater capacity that's touted for OL. We can use those same cost-savings advantages (i.e smaller stations) to a Sheppard extension. So if OL is 100m trains/stations vis a vis a 140m TR (35k pphpd), Sheppard could be 40m trains/stations. They're better at handling grades and turns? Take advantage of that too and perhaps use Line 3's ROW.

Another alternative would be extending Sheppard as 3-car TTC legacy subways. Good too. But arguably less so than something a bit more nimble. If plans backtracked and Line 3 was to be upgraded to Innovia Mk4, consider that too.

Basically anything other than a 6-car TTC train. It's just so massively overbuilt to do that and is the leading reason the line was cut short at the outset, and has remained that way. Didn't reach Vic Pk, nor SC, nor Downsview. Sure some will claim it's a conspiracy by the elites to deprive the outer 416 of subways. But it's not. It's costs of building such oversized infrastructure.

I don't even know what you are suggesting now its all over the place. If the shepherd subway is extended it makes sense to keep it as TTC gauge subways so that it can connect with Wilson yard in the west so that it could be used to transfer trains from one side of the line to another instead of having to go through the Bloor Danforth line as they would now if there was a problem with a section of the line.

 

[11th]

I don't think gauge is an associated with costs (there's likely a smidge but nothing to write home about). It's about sharing a system, and taking advantage of the supposed ~150% greater capacity that's touted for OL. We can use those same cost-savings advantages (i.e smaller stations) to a Sheppard extension. So if OL is 100m trains/stations vis a vis a 140m TR (35k pphpd), Sheppard could be 40m trains/stations. They're better at handling grades and turns? Take advantage of that too and perhaps use Line 3's ROW.

Another alternative would be extending Sheppard as 3-car TTC legacy subways. Good too. But arguably less so than something a bit more nimble. If plans backtracked and Line 3 was to be upgraded to Innovia Mk4, consider that too.

Basically anything other than a 6-car TTC train. It's just so massively overbuilt to do that and is the leading reason the line was cut short at the outset, and has remained that way. Didn't reach Vic Pk, nor SC, nor Downsview. Sure some will claim it's a conspiracy by the elites to deprive the outer 416 of subways. But it's not. It's costs of building such oversized infrastructure.

It's cut short because at the time of construction governments were in no mood of funding it (provincial), or just cash strapped (city). By the time the province's ready to open the cheque book, priorities changed, and therefore line's not extended.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The next LRT will the Eglinton East Extention and Finch to Don Mills/Seneca. No shame in that. LRT is dead for this corridor. A shame but LRT is seen as divisive.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

What makes the Ontario Line need the separate technology is the fact that it needs to make far tighter curves and grades than the legacy subway network.

Sheppard is unlikely to face such restrictions, and as such I see no reason to regauge the line. Running an elevated line with the existing rolling stock should be more than doable.

Question is where to come above ground?

 

[ARG1]

Question is where to come above ground?

East of Victoria Park probably. Don Mills Station is quite deep so it can go under the 404 - and as such we can have it resurface through Cummer and VP stations, after that its elevated.