Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[OneCity]

That's a word salad you just put out. You are claiming politicians are responsible - and yet you can't even build the same bridges yourself, and you have a far, far more limited audience. What's the greater good and to whom? By what objective (never mind politically astute) crtieria should we go by? Ridership? Coverage? Intra-416 fairness? You tell me what the greater good is - and then you try selling that "greater good" to a population who can have very, very different ideas of what that great good is - and survive long enough to implement these plans.

What are you waiting for? You should run for office now.

AoD

No I'm saying that at all. Political should just be held more accountable than people. It was another poster who blamed people. Which is absurd.

Torontos main Political issue currently stems from the Province and Feds which is even more complex. The recent Municipal strife is a bi product of not having a funding plan to keep incrementally moving on the original plan

Sorry for the word salad. I'm just saying one person is voting for a Politicians for an array of issues and can only choose the best for them over all the issues. When voting for the ones responsible for funding transit it gets even more absurd to blame Toronto residents as you are dealing with issues for an entire Province and County. This complex funding problem goes for housing and transit which is polarizing the City is not on Toronto residents or even our local Politicians. There should have been a plan decades ago.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

No I'm saying that they are more accountable than people. It was another poster who blamed people. Which is absurd.

Torontos issue stem the Province and Feds which is even more complex. The recent Municipal strife is a bi product of not having a funding plan to keep incrementally moving on the original plan

Sorry for the word salad. I'm just saying one person is voting for a Politicians for an array of issues and can only choose the best for them over all the issues. When voting for the ones responsible for funding transit it gets even more absurd to blame Toronto residents as you are dealing with issues for an entire Province and County

I will bite - which original plan are we talking about? The umpteen transit plans? Which one is better? If you can even decide on that score, you will have to come up with a funding plan for it - the easy part - and get consensus to implement it and survive long enough to see it not torn down.

And yes, guess who voted in those politicians representing the interests of other areas of the province and indeed the country. Haven't you been blaming the "downtown elites" for awhile? Now all of a sudden it's just the politicians?

AoD

 

[sixrings]

Politicians.. Here's why... I'm not an employed politician and I don't want to take responsibilityfor my own selfish desires. From a former scarborough resident

 

[sixrings]

If its going towards things people care about like transit overall people will support it. The anti "waste" tax Ford base didn't budge when taxes where raised for transit. If the media and a few outside Politicians would move on and advocate for more of this it wouldn't be an issue.

It's the media's falt folks. They don't want to support scarborough despite ctv having an office there

 

[kEiThZ]

Personally I would vote for a party that promised to impose a new, dedicated tax on something (let's not call it a "revenue tool"... a tax is a tax) that would generate enough money for DRL Long, and a Sheppard subway extension at both ends, and a Lawrence Station on Line 2, and a Halton bypass for GO. And Waterfront LRT, and maybe some additional LRT. But I may be alone in that.

If all the Tories did was promise to finish RER, DRL Short and fix the Scarborough Subway (add a stop), and leave projects underway alone, I'd be happy. They'd have my vote. Governments do need to change after all. And the Liberals can continue all the LRT work after 4 years on the Opposition benches.

I am also not optimistic on the Liberals continuing the transit agenda full bore after the election. Their capital spending is a major part of the deficit. They'll have to find a way to repackage it (CIB?) or they might be cutting back too.

 

[OneCity]

?

I will bite - which original plan are we talking about? The umpteen transit plans? Which one is better? If you can even decide on that score, you will have to come up with a funding plan for it - the easy part - and get consensus to implement it and survive long enough to see it not torn down.

And yes, guess who voted in those politicians representing the interests of other areas of the province and indeed the country. Haven't you been blaming the "downtown elites" for awhile? Now all of a sudden it's just the politicians?

AoD

Fair point about the revolving plan. There were good plans pre amalgamation (which didn't include Sheppard) that if build incrementally under a funding plan would have prevented this issue. Instead we went way off course. and we are asking Scarborough to integrated differently. Our system allows those in power to do that and if we didn't vote in those, we would have voted others to fill their own personal agenda. You cant blame people solely.

Blaming downtown "elites" lol. Cmon you gonna go there with me? Really? There are some polarized posters here who are jaded off Rob Fords mayoralty often try to paint that if you don't agree with transfer LRT or disagree with the media being called out for being politically affiliated, especially when I mention the side affiliated with the pro downtown left leaning councillors. Very sensitive to some here. I only bring up how wealth, media and their Poltical affiliation all connected (I guess they do call the elite in dumbed down political terms) and that not a reflection of the greater residents themselves. I respect people from all walks of life and areas. So don't bother. You don't agree, Cool. No need go here further as this discussion in this thread unless you car to go offline to save clutter, is already gone off the rails from Sheppard.

Simply put, I blame a lack of a funding plan as #1. You an blame any person solely, or Politicians. But Politicians have more direct power to make the change.

 

[rbt]

Their capital spending is a major part of the deficit. They'll have to find a way to repackage it (CIB?) or they might be cutting back too.

Capital spending (or revenue from sales) doesn't show up in the deficit except as annual debt payments which (at the moment) is actually lower than in the 90's.

Interest rate changes will impact that far more than another $20B in debt would.

So long as Liberals don't change the accounting practices again, they're in reasonably good shape to spend all they like provided Revenue continues to increase. A recession can kill their budget but the definition of deficit is different than it was when Harris ran the show (when selling 407 actually did appear on that years budget instead of as a reduction in debt).

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Fair point about the revolving plan. There were god plans pre amalgamation (which didn't include Sheppard) that if build incrementally under a funding plan would have prevented this issue. Instead we went way off course. Our system allows those in power to do that and if we didn't vote in those, wwe would have voted others to fill thei own personal agenda. You cant blame people solely.

Blaming downtown "elites lol. Some polarized posters here who are jaded off Rob Fords mayoralty often try to paint that if you don't agree with transfer LRT or disagree with the media or call them out for being Politicised, especially the side affiliated with the pro downtown left. . No need go here further as this discussion is already gone off from Sheppard.

Politicians are a reflection of the electorate, mixed in with a good amount of instinctual self-preservation. Why did you think politicians behaved the way they did?

Why is it off track? You wanted to talk about the political reality of moving transit forward, there is no better thing to talk about than the many tensions that helped to prevent a coherent transit and funding plan from happening. As to RoFo, I don't expect politicians to work miracles (those with that kind of charisma and skill is few and far in between), but I do expect competence - and he is about as useless a mayor as it gets.

AoD

 

[sixrings]

I'd argue the media is also a representation of the public. If they know most of the people skew left they are going to report left because it's good for business. Which means if they aren't supportive of the scarborough extension or the Sheppard expansion it isn't because the owner personally doesn't support it but because the people who watch are looking for their views to be verified in news.

 

[OneCity]

Politicians are a reflection of the electorate, mixed in with a good amount of instinctual self-preservation. Why did you think politicians behaved the way they did?

Why is it off track? You wanted to talk about the political reality of moving transit forward, there is no better thing to talk about than the many tensions that helped to prevent a coherent transit and funding plan from happening. As to RoFo, I don't expect politicians to work miracles (those with that kind of charisma and skill is few and far in between), but I do expect competence - and he is about as useless a mayor as it gets.

AoD

Given the way the thread is heading to Politics only and less to do with Sheppard I was suggesting it might be better to move it elsewhere. Although is a reasonable debate on how much power people have on one single topic. When you seem to want to paint me with Political campaign slogans offered to take that type of discussion offline if your really want to go there further as that's not a good basis for discussion nor did it have to do with anything I was discussing.

RoFo was a mess indeed. But the only reason his Politics resonate with so many is because there is a lot of underlying tension not being discussed that stems from a lack of previous investment, unequal investment in some areas and a lack of investment to keep up with growth from past investments. There were many transit plans as you say, none even had a sustained funding plan and now its a fight for scraps. Its a sad situation and I'm sorry I cant solely just blame people of the City. Its a Provincial and Federal issue that's put the City in such disarray more than anything else in my opinion

 

[sixrings]

Rob Ford wouldn't have had power if people hadn't voted for him. No different than Trump. You get what you vote for... BTW some voters are to dumb to figure out that promises are just things to be postponed while shovels in the ground are tangable things. But that doesn't matter because according to you scarborough would rather have nothing and ride buses until their fantasy subway shows up then to have three lrt lines

 

[OneCity]

Rob Ford wouldn't have had power if people hadn't voted for him. No different than Trump. You get what you vote for...

If these types are in power its because we have a issues not being discussed and the people are lashing out though a democratic mechanism. If these types are even in the running, somethings are wrong and not being properly discussed.

But that doesn't matter because according to you scarborough would rather have nothing and ride buses until their fantasy subway shows up then to have three lrt lines

Is this really what Ive said ever? Or are you just trying to be mean and trolling again? Cause I don't recall saying anything like this. I talk about a better plan than the ill placed transfer on Sheppard which most would have to take a bus to just to get to the LRT you think was well designed. Keep up Scarborough the bashing, throwing out false statements and baiting

 

[sixrings]

This is what one calls a paraphrase or summary. These threads are too long to go through to get your crazy quotes. But you and other scarborough people have definately said you'd prefer buses then streetcar like LRTs on Sheppard. You can deny it but we all remember both yours and coffey1 views.

 

[sixrings]

Trump is in power because white people are sad their white privledge isn't exactly what it used to be. Do I need to listen to these yahoo's as well. Go ahead protest for your subways to under developed parts of the city which don't have the density nor wants the density to support these lines. I don't need to agree with youand I can call you out for your selfishness.

 

[Elite People]

This is what one calls a paraphrase or summary. These threads are too long to go through to get your crazy quotes. But you and other scarborough people have definately said you'd prefer buses then streetcar like LRTs on Sheppard. You can deny it but we all remember both yours and coffey1 views.

As I have read all these previous comments, I see as you are framing OnceCity saying he said 'this', he said 'that'. I understand you are a Senior Member, but being here longer doesn't make anyone wiser. Also paraphrases are creating for a reason. They're for responding to multiple statements.