Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[OneCity]

With you on this. I totally do not understand the argument that it's a capacity downgrade. So what? That capacity isn't required. And LRT conversion enables through service with lots of surface running in Scarborough. I wish LRT champions would push this. It's the best way to sell LRT on this corridor in my opinion: advertise the elimination of a transfer and extension of service.

Exactly and if they cant find a car to fit in the tunnel they should abandoned the tunnel. Seriously . If its so great for Scarborough to be above ground its good enough for North York, especially on Sheppard ave. As Aquateams map above clearly shows This stretch was not even supposed to have transit to begin with. If anything the tunnel could provide a stop gap during construction while they fix the real issue here.

But who are we kidding? Back to reality. Politicians will never admit this big of screw up. Scarborough residents will be the ones slagged by a few minority outsiders for not accepting the transfer LRT patchwork and a subway will be extended in the future to keep transit in political hands

 

[kEiThZ]

You never heard of white flight?

Have you heard of statistical significance?

Nice try with a red herring. Where's the stats to prove that white flight makes up a substantial portion of today's inner suburban residents?

 

[kEiThZ]

Who are we kidding. Politicians will never admit this big of screw up. Scarpobotugh residents will be blamed by outsiders for not accepting the transfer LRT and a subway will be extended in the future

The LRT is the better solution on Sheppard. And it's so easy to push LRT if conversion is part of the discussion. Just ridiculous that some will hold fast against it. Oh well, subway extension to Agincourt it is.... Especially if the Tories win.

 

[APTA-2048]

Bullshit.

This is conflict created by artificial scarcity by politicians (of all stripes and levels) too cowardly to raise taxes. I do put a lot of blame on city councillors and the mayor. They don't want to make the hard choices.

And then you get guys like Miller who decided that the best way to win support was to find a cheap to build mode of transit and try to get a line in every ward. His alternative to having a tough discussion on raising taxes to pay for the DRL.

Do we blame politicians or do we blame ourselves? Everybody wants nice things, but nobody wants to pay for them. I guess we can blame the politicians for continuing to enable this mentality.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Do we blame politicians or do we blame ourselves? Everybody wants nice things, but nobody wants to pay for them. I guess we can blame the politicians for continuing to enable this mentality.

Because the $60 VRT was really popular.

AoD

 

[kEiThZ]

Do we blame politicians or do we blame ourselves? Everybody wants nice things, but nobody wants to pay for them. I guess we can blame the politicians for continuing to enable this mentality.

Politicians.

Here's why. It's never easy to raise taxes. How often does the public vote to raise taxes? But a good leader should be able to articulate a proper vision, propose a long term financial plan for that vision and sell it to the public at least to the point of palatability if not support.

I am critical of many of Miller's policies. But this is one area where the man truly lead.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The electorate is composed of grown adults. They have nobody but themselves to blame for their situation. Their getting exactly what they asked for, especially with regards to transit

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Politicians.

Here's why. It's never easy to raise taxes. How often does the public vote to raise taxes? But a good leader should be able to articulate a proper vision, propose a long term financial plan for that vision and sell it to the public at least to the point of palatability if not support.

I am critical of many of Miller's policies. But this is one area where the man truly lead.

That is a really idealistic take - but the end of the day recall the old adage - people get the government they deserve.

AoD

 

[kEiThZ]

The electorate is composed of grown adults. They have nobody but themselves to blame for their situation. Their getting exactly what they asked for, especially with regards to transit

What's most surprising to me is that politicians take some of this so seriously. How much did the Scarborough subway raise the average tax bill? Few dollars a month? Other than outrage prior, how many voters have truly noticed their property taxes going up after the fact? That shows you there's tons of room for incrementalism.

 

[OneCity]

That is a really idealistic take - but the end of the day recall the old adage - people get the government they deserve.

AoD

If you really think politics are binary and one to one. Its not that simple and Politicians are far more to blame. I have yet to see one candidate develop a long term funding strategy . Which is the main issue here on transit.

Whos fault is that?

 

[OneCity]

What's most surprising to me is that politicians take some of this so seriously. How much did the Scarborough subway raise the average tax bill? Few dollars a month? Other than outrage prior, how many voters have truly noticed their property taxes going up after the fact? That shows you there's tons of room for incrementalism.

If its going towards things people care about like transit overall people will support it. The anti "waste" tax Ford base didn't budge when taxes where raised for transit. If the media and a few outside Politicians would move on and advocate for more of this it wouldn't be an issue.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The belief at the time was that ATO would be able to manage ridership demands for another decade or so, before we'd need to move onto other solutions (DRL). Back in 2007, I don't think the Don Mills Subway (Relief Line Long) was on anybody's radar. All the Relief Line proposals were the traditional "U" configuration, with perhaps an extension to Eglinton. So if our planners were blind to the future need of this subway line, I can't really fault the mayor for not protecting the corridor; he's just the mayor, he's not a transit expert.

The first time I saw the Don Mills subway line proposed was around five years ago on Steve Munro's site. It seems to me that nobody at the TTC even considered that the Don Mills corridor would one day, by necessity, be home to a subway line. Even around 2011, when TTC concluded its Downtown Rapid Transit Assessment Study, they never considered a relief subway line on Don Mills. The furthest north proposal they examined brought the DRL to Eglinton.

Seemingly the only reason a Don Mills subway is being very aggressively pushed today is because of Metrolinx's stunning 2015 Yonge Relief Network Study report, which asserted that none of the relief options on the table today could handle Yonge Line demand, and that a subway on Don Mills would be necessary. Suddenly the Don Mills subway proposal went from a ridiculous fantasy to urgent necessity virtually overnight. Since then we've seen the Province and City act swiftly to amend their plans and make the necessary investments necessary to see the Don Mills subway built as quickly as possible.

A subway to Don Mills has been on the books since the early 1960s. Maybe you're just talking about the extension from Eglinton to Sheppard along Don Mills?

Yes, that's exactly what I was talking about.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

If you really think politics are binary and one to one. Its not that simple and Politicians are far more to blame. I have yet to see one candidate develop a long term funding strategy . Which is the main issue here on transit.

Whos fault is that?

The electorate's - you and I chose those politicians. Just look the conversations we had in this particular forum - what would any remotely skilled politician make out of it in terms of policy?

And honestly, what does "binary" and "one to one" even mean? Simplistic is blaming the politicians - who had to look at mulitiple jurisdictions with competiting (and often divergent) interests when one can't even convince their forum brethrens the soundness of their schemes.

AoD

 

[OneCity]

The electorate's - you and I chose those politicians. Just look the conversations we had in this particular forum - what would any remotely skilled politician make out of it in terms of policy?

And honestly, what does "binary" and "one to one" even mean?

AoD

One person does not = one politician, and Politicians have alot of cross over in their platforms on a wide spectrum of topics. You cant place the finger at people on any one specific topic.

These are hired representatives to look out for the greater good. The small details can be attributed to voters to some extent, bigger issues like long term funding plans and taxation is up to the elected officials.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

One person does not = one politician, and Politicians have alot of cross over in their platforms on a spectrum of topics. These are hired representatives to look out for the greater good. The small details can be attributed to voters to some extent, long term funding and taxing is up to the elected officials.

That's a word salad you just put out. You are claiming politicians are responsible - and yet you can't even build the same bridges yourself, and you have a far, far more limited audience. What's the greater good and to whom? By what objective (never mind politically astute) crtieria should we go by? Ridership? Coverage? Intra-416 fairness? You tell me what the greater good is - and then you try selling that "greater good" to a population who can have very, very different ideas of what that greater good is - and survive long enough to implement these plans. Nevermind that you will be dealing with challengers who will take advantage of other interpretations of what that greater good is and compete with you for the votes.

What are you waiting for? You should run for office now.

AoD