Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[DB9]

City council had that conversation, asked city staff to prepare a formal comparison, and found that building the subway above ground would save less than $200 million, minus the cost of replacing the SRT with bus service for several years.

For Sheppard, a surface route isn't feasible, and an elevated guideway above a major road normally isn't much cheaper than tunnelling in the 21st century. When city staff looked at the possibility of a fully elevated route above Midland Road, it came in at just $116 million cheaper than tunnelling the same route. When you factor in the other costs of elevating the subway - things like lost tax revenue from lower property values, lost tax revenue from the traffic disruptions, etc. - it's not worth the tiny amount of savings.

Given how wide Sheppard is from Vic Park to McCowan, I find it hard to comprehend why a surface route isn't feasible, even if it takes a little property expropriation. The issue with tunnelling isn't even the cost of the tunnel itself. It's the extravagant costs of the station envelopes, especially if it's not shallow.

 

[DB9]

Also there is little resistance to the Eglinton LRT which is above ground as it serve a different purpose from the SSE and its too bad we cant convert the Sheppard stub to LRT or use a vehicle that could be seamlessly connected. But that also doesn't seem possible so the reality is the subway is the only option that will see support for Sheppard in Scarborough

It's unfortunate the Sheppard stubway conversion is not championed by anyone. It is the only feasible way to make Sheppard work, even it it's a temporary annoyance for those currently living on the line.

 

[OneCity]

I fail to see how a lrt ride to a don mills downtown relief line is a hardship to scarborough riders. Seems more like people won't be happy until the subway bstops at their doorstep. BTW many people like streetcar and the lrt spacing would be more like express busses

I fail to see how adding an extra transfer into residents long commutes is thought of as good transit planning and why any transit rider would support that? Seems more like a handful of outside Polticians wont be happy until the can force blanket LRT technology at our residents doorstep. BTW most would have to take a bus to the LRT then subway and on, much more convenient to stay on the bus to the subway an on....

The City needs to either acknowledge the mistake on Sheppard and pay the price to modify a vehicle to fit in the current tunnel or continue to face the reality that Scarborough residents wont accept being inconvenienced with an ill placed transfer from a questionable decision of the past. Convert the stub or finish the subway loop, anything else is a hack job of transit building.

 

[amnesiajune]

It's unfortunate the Sheppard stubway conversion is not championed by anyone. It is the only feasible way to make Sheppard work, even it it's a temporary annoyance for those currently living on the line.

It's not feasible, at all. The tunnel diameter for subway trains in Toronto is about 20 cm smaller than the tunnel diameter for LRVs. Even if you could rebuild all of the stations for low-floor LRVs, you would have to either redo the tunnels somehow, or find LRVs that will fit in the existing tunnels somehow.

Given how wide Sheppard is from Vic Park to McCowan, I find it hard to comprehend why a surface route isn't feasible, even if it takes a little property expropriation.

It would take a lot of property expropriation. What's the point of saving a couple hundred million on the cost of tunneling and station boxes when you have to spend most of that acquiring land and removing whatever's currently on it?

 

[sixrings]

Where exactly is the extra transfer unless you are trying to get to yonge and Sheppard. Why don't scarborough residents care about the transfer to bus on the other side of yonge. Guess it's not in your backyard

 

[OneCity]

Where exactly is the extra transfer unless you are trying to get to yonge and Sheppard. Why don't scarborough residents care about the transfer to bus on the other side of yonge. Guess it's not in your backyard

Yes Yonge and Sheppard. Bus to LRT to Stub to subway or Bus to subway to subway. Residents west of McCowan on Sheppard had almost no interest in the LRT for this simple reason.

 

[Rainforest]

I don't get why people want transit expansion but don't want to pay more taxes. Some people want more transit AND less taxes...

Part of the problem is that the City is not allowed to charge income taxes or sales taxes.

The main source of the City's revenue is property taxes. The ability to pay property taxes is, in many cases, doesn't correlate with the current value of property. Think of senior who bought a house in the old city decades ago when they were several times cheaper, and saw the prices going way up. Technically they are sitting on the mountain of gold, but they only can unlock that wealth by selling and expelling themselves from the neighborhood they are used to live in.

 

[Rainforest]

The strangest part to all this is that most proponents want the Scarborough subway underground. There doesn't seem to be any serious conversation about having the subway at street level or above ground to save money or make it economically feasible. Sheppard still looks the same as when I grew up there - a wide suburban avenue with a patch work of parking lots, strip malls, gas stations and old apartments. I don't see why we have to spend extra billions on an extravagant tunnel.

Yes. If the Sheppard line is to be extended, we should look at either surface/elevated subway, or express LRT. A full-fledged subway costs so much these days that it will never reach the edges of the city and thus will never fill even 60% of its design capacity.

 

[lead82]

The city should raise property taxes. It's not the cities job to subsidize wealthy seniors. If you can't afford your property taxes then sell your home and downsize. When young families are struggling to find places to live, seniors are often living in larger homes (on average) and are able to defer and or reduce their taxes through city and provincial subsidies. I understand the argument about fixed incomes. However, the insistence to stay in place prevents the changes necessary for neighbourhood amenities to be supported and used. Many stable Toronto neighbourhoods are having schools closed because there are fewer kids. These are often neighbourhoods with higher rates of seniors and those that don't have much development. Homes are unaffordable because there aren't enough older homes for sale.

The main issue for me is fairness. Toronto keeps taxes low for low rise homes but taxes dense high/mid rise density at a much higher rate. It makes no sense at all when higher density is more efficient to service per capita and the residents are often renters and in lower income and lower wealth/ equity.

 

[Rainforest]

I fail to see how a lrt ride to a don mills downtown relief line is a hardship to scarborough riders.

That trick would be particularly hard to pull, given that the Don Mills relief line does not exist. It didn't even exist in blueprints when the bulk of Sheppard debate occurred.

Had the Don Mills relief line been present in the city's official plans, the whole debate could take a different turn.

 

[Rainforest]

The city should raise property taxes. It's not the cities job to subsidize wealthy seniors. If you can't afford your property taxes then sell your home and downsize. When young families are struggling to find places to live, seniors are often living in larger homes (on average) and are able to defer and or reduce their taxes through city and provincial subsidies. I understand the argument about fixed incomes. However, the insistence to stay in place prevents the changes necessary for neighbourhood amenities to be supported and used. Many stable Toronto neighbourhoods are having schools closed because there are fewer kids. These are often neighbourhoods with higher rates of seniors and those that don't have much development. Homes are unaffordable because there aren't enough older homes for sale.

The main issue for me is fairness. Toronto keeps taxes low for low rise homes but taxes dense high/mid rise density at a much higher rate. It makes no sense at all when higher density is more efficient to service per capita and the residents are often renters and in lower income and lower wealth/ equity.

That's correct from the formal logic standpoint. However, the prevailing approach to social issues is to help the people maintain their current lifestyle, rather than force a change.

 

[sixrings]

But drl long is currently in discussion which means that there is no real need to push for Sheppard extension since the majority of the lrt riders would be heading downtown not to y&s. If anything scarborough should want drl long and be fighting for a shepherd stop on the bloor extension

 

[lead82]

Therein lies the core problem we face. We as a society is reluctant to change lifestyle even though our current lifestyles are unsustainable. The results are what we see today. Social contract is broken and needs a 21st Century rewrite.

 

[Rainforest]

It's not feasible, at all. The tunnel diameter for subway trains in Toronto is about 20 cm smaller than the tunnel diameter for LRVs. Even if you could rebuild all of the stations for low-floor LRVs, you would have to either redo the tunnels somehow, or find LRVs that will fit in the existing tunnels somehow.

No, the conversion is technically possible. LRVs with catenary can fit into the subway tunnels. Even if they couldn't fit, special trainsets with dual power, catenary outside / third rail inside, could be procured.

However, the cost of rebuilding the stations for low-floor LRT is way too high to be practical. The estimate was $670 million back in 2009 or so, likely > 1 billion in today's dollars.

If the line is to be converted, it should be converted either to high-floor LRT or to narrow-body subway cars (to make the extensions cheaper).

 

[Rainforest]

But drl long is currently in discussion which means that there is no real need to push for Sheppard extension since the majority of the lrt riders would be heading downtown not to y&s. If anything scarborough should want drl long and be fighting for a shepherd stop on the bloor extension

I don't disagree with that, but then we don't know what the current real preferences of the residents are. Once presented with the choice of expediting DRL Long vs extending the Sheppard line, they might actually prefer DRL Long.

Some of the local councilors may just be playing the old song because that's the only one they know.