Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[Elite People]

Not really on-topic but I'll reply anyways:


Looks good, though I'm not sure Finch East is more realistic than something happening on Sheppard. And Toronto Zoo doesn't seem like its important enough to be a major interchange station.

The other thread gets activity when people post new maps, so yes you should post it there.

Re: The reason I chose Finch East is because of 39 + 36. Both are overcrowded and I know this is nowhere realistic but it extended it via Old Finch.

I chose Toronto Zoo because well map reasons. If I chose MTC (Malvern) the spacing to add line number would overlap Finch Line. (Imagine if I created Sheppard...)

 

[DB9]

I have literally never heard a single family member or friend from Scarborough mention the DRL. The only ones that ever do are people I know who live downtown.

The marketing on this has been terrible....when it comes to the average Joe. Most of the push has been on LRT vs. subway. Very little discussion and coverage on the DRL. Particularly if you look at the mainstream media.

So I really am curious to see which way the tories go. On one hand, Hudak actually had the DRL in his platform the last time around. On the other hand, if you look at the raw politics of it (and note that I am not saying this a good idea....I think transit planning should be done by a regional bureaucratic agency), the DRL would be super expensive and no real electoral payoff compared to Sheppard and Yonge North.

Having grown up in "6dad Norm's" riding, and with family still living there, I can say the terrible marketing is due in large part to the absolutely awful local councilors Scarborough keeps electing.. washed up has-beens like Karygiannis are only interested in riling up the electorate with wedge issues and silly subways to nowhere than supporting projects that would actually help and benefit Scarborough. Even the 6dad has been ridiculously quiet on the DRL front, even though his riding and North Scarborough would be significant benefactors of the DRL. It's an absolute travesty, because Scarborough has a lot of untapped potential, and probably has the most beautiful parks and natural scenery in the 416.

Often times they seemed much more concerned about downtown issues and acting out their regular obstructionist soap operas in council, than actually thinking about how to make their local wards a better place.

Norm was also dismissive of "bike lanes", and they got rid of the bike lanes on Huntingwood instead of improving it with bollards, etc. Now everytime I'm walking around the neighbourhood, I'm almost mowed down by people who are biking on the sidewalks, cause it's too dangerous to bike on the streets.

I still get Norm's monthly newsletter, and it's often nothing more than a laundry list of paltry "accomplishments" and NIMBYism gone awry.

Now living downtown, its a breath of fresh air seeing how much more committed councilors to their ward's growth and livability. It's almost like night and day.

DRL Long, is I think, just out of the question. The cost would be incredible. The timeline to deliver very long (spanning at least 2 full terms) And there's no way either the Liberals or the Tories will deliver that in the next decade.

I utterly abhor this Liberal government. But they probably are the only chance of shovels in the ground for the DRL in the next half decade.

I agree the stars will have to align to get it built, but I'm crossing my fingers common sense will prevail. This and the Stouville GO RER (plus feeder LRT routes) would be the absolute game changers that Scarborough deserves.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

DRL Long, is I think, just out of the question. The cost would be incredible. The timeline to deliver very long (spanning at least 2 full terms) And there's no way either the Liberals or the Tories will deliver that in the next decade.

Long has to be built. It's the only proposal we've had that can deal with the Yonge Line capacity crisis. The only alternative to Relief Line Long is crippling and perpetual crowding on the Yonge Line, with economic costs that are sure to eclipse whatever it would cost to build Long. And, of course, the Sheppard Subway extension can't ever go ahead without Long in place, as it'd cause even more crowding on the already overcrowded Yonge Line.

Relief Line Long looks like it'll cost in the ballpark of $7 Billion to $8 Billion. Putting this into perspective, that's around the same cost of the Transit City LRT plan. So I don't believe it's unrealistic that the Province would solely fund the line. And of course, if Ottawa chipped in, it'd require a federal and provincial contribution of $3.5 Billion each. The federal government just committed $5 Billion to Toronto transit, so it's certainly not out of the question that they could chip in $3.5 Billion a little less than a decade from now.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

DRL Long, is I think, just out of the question. The cost would be incredible. The timeline to deliver very long (spanning at least 2 full terms) And there's no way either the Liberals or the Tories will deliver that in the next decade.

Long has to be built. It's the only proposal we've had that can deal with the Yonge Line capacity crisis. The only alternative to Relief Line Long is crippling and perpetual crowding on the Yonge Line, with economic costs that are sure to eclipse whatever it would cost to build Long. And, of course, the Sheppard Subway extension can't ever go ahead without Long in place, as it'd cause even more crowding on the already overcrowded Yonge Line.

Relief Line Long looks like it'll cost in the ballpark of $7 Billion to $8 Billion. Putting this into perspective, that's around the same cost of the Transit City LRT plan. So I don't believe it's unrealistic that the Province would solely fund the line. And of course, if Ottawa chipped in, it'd require a federal and provincial contribution of $3.5 Billion each. The federal government just committed $5 Billion to Toronto transit, so it's certainly not out of the question that they could chip in $3.5 Billion a little less than a decade from now.

Yes, it'll be expensive, but Relief Line Long is sure to be the single most impressive piece of infrastructure built in Toronto since at least the 1960s. The future of Toronto depends on this subway line, just as much as it depended on the Yonge or Bloor-Danforth lines. Modern day Toronto, had Yonge not been built, would be unrecognizable. So I have hope and faith that we'll see this line built.

 

[kEiThZ]

Relief Line Long looks like it'll cost in the ballpark of $7 Billion to $8 Billion.

Really don't see how this is a realistic estimate given the inflation seen on the Bloor-Danforth extension. I think we could see this level of spending on just DRL Short from University to Danforth.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Really don't see how this is a realistic estimate given the inflation seen on the Bloor-Danforth extension. I think we could see this level of spending on just DRL Short from University to Danforth.

I think the proper term is Relief Line North (Relief Line Long minus Relief Line Short) for $7-8B. Completely separate from Relief Line South (Relief Line Short)

 

[crs1026]

The Relief Line is a rock in the bay that no one really wants, but everyone (perhaps quietly) agrees has to be built. It's not sexy, doesn't unify some constituency that generates votes, doesn't define anyone's vision of a next generation city. It is just.....needed. If you ignore it, you will hit the rock and you will sink. But politically, it's only slightly sexier than sewer construction.

I do think it will get started. If it is left as the Phase I stub, well, we haven't learned much in this city.

Personally I would vote for a party that promised to impose a new, dedicated tax on something (let's not call it a "revenue tool"... a tax is a tax) that would generate enough money for DRL Long, and a Sheppard subway extension at both ends, and a Lawrence Station on Line 2, and a Halton bypass for GO. And Waterfront LRT, and maybe some additional LRT. But I may be alone in that.

- Paul

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The Relief Line is a rock in the bay that no one really wants, but everyone (perhaps quietly) agrees has to be built. It's not sexy, doesn't unify some constituency that generates votes, doesn't define anyone's vision of a next generation city. It is just.....needed. If you ignore it, you will hit the rock and you will sink. But politically, it's only slightly sexier than sewer construction.

If it were only as sexy as a sewer, I don't believe we would've seen Long sail through the approval processes and get $150 Million in funding with unanimous political support and little activism. I think politicians recognize how popular the project will be, and they intend to incorporate it into future political campaigns (either 2018 or 2022). The Ontario Liberals certainly didn't commit that much to the project, with essentially nobody asking for that funding, out of the goodness of their hearts. They believe it'll win them future elections.

Furthermore, I recall a poll from last year that showed that between 70 and 80 percent of Torontonians already supported the concept of the Relief Line Long. It's rare you can get 70 percent of people in this city to agree on anything, let alone infrastructure, which is usually a particularly hot button issue.

 

[OneCity]

That population was more than content buying 2 car garages with the sole intent to drive until they realized transit affects their property values. We can rewrite history but the suburbs are made up of people who once lived in the city, thought it became grungy and moved to the suburbs. Now that the burbs have become a wasteland and these suburbanites missed their memo to sell and move back they are acting as if it's an attack on the poor.

This statement is completely wrong, ignorant, polarizing and extreme

The only few areas within Scarborough I would even slightly consider a reference to a "wasteland" or "troubled" better yet would be due to old high rise density. Not the double car garage homes in any way, which only exist in certain pockets to begin with. Bungalows and single car homes are actually more prominent as far as home type in the areas. Even those double car garage homes you speak so negatively about are actually in high demand across the GTA from Burlington to Oshawa and beyond, heck they are a precious commodity the closer you get to downtown and the do exist there too, and exist in similar numbers off the main streets and surrounding many subway stops near the core. As far as Scarborough goes its a very diverse suburb with various types of zoning and growth needs and the fact you can only discuss in a narrow and negative view is sad.

Amongst many other generalizations you generalize Scarborough residents as not wanting to pay for anything. But its people on the outside of Scarborough making the most noise when it comes to transit investments elsewhere in the City. It can be debated which side actually wins in the long run between inner suburban residents and the Core residents as far as Captial investment taxes go and in the end I really think its basically a wash as inner suburban residents are and also helping to paying for some massive investments in the years to come. Really not worth the fight on either side, or trying to have a standard blanket approach across every area will only cause delays and drive up costs in the long run. People need to be more supportive in in all facets of growth the City. Elected Mayors like Tory and Ford didn't create the divide, and the ignorance that exists they just tapped into it as the voting numbers and your false comments speak for itself.

People are just pissed with their investment choices and expecting the rest of the city to pay for it. Ever hear you cant have your cake and eat it to? Of course not.... youre from Scarborough.

No Scarborough resident is pissed with their investment choice? Most people here love the place and your perception is the one that skewed. What they are pissed about is the lack of and poor choice of legacy investments, the disrespect towards individual voices for growth and connectivity and the fact some people outside Scarborough have such an unfair negative view that blankets such a massive diverse area.

Not sure this debate belongs anywhere on this forum but if you are going to post these kind of generalized statements here then it needs to be called out for the false nonsense that it is. I wont respond back to further bashing dialogue like this. There is already a UT thread to vent against a specific Scarborough transit investment, maybe more appropriate to take these negative inner suburban generalizations and over there or maybe somewhere in Politics. Even then...?

 

[sixrings]

If they love their place so much why do they care what the rest of Toronto calls them. Shouldnt they be content in what they are. Instead they are hung up on what names people refer to them as. And scarborough is hung up on their fair share in regards to subways. You got your STC subway. And now you arent happy. You keep pushing for more as if the rest of Toronto has subway access at their doorstops. Tell that to people at rexdale. Or people near kipling and lakeshore.

I will never ever use the DRL. I live near bathurst and Eglinton and it really has no purpose to me. But I am not blind enough to think it isnt the better investment choice when there are so few dollars.

Somehow you think there is a government money tree to pay for all this. That or you actually dont care what the better investment is as long as you get your own line. I am not the selfish one in this regard.

 

[amnesiajune]

Somehow you think there is a government money tree to pay for all this.

There is - it's called the economy. If the government invested one extra percentage point of Toronto's GDP into transit expansion, that would be a $30 billion fund for the next 15-20 years. That's enough to build the SSE, and DRL long, and Sheppard extensions to Scarborough and Sheppard West, and many other important transit projects.

 

[sixrings]

except that the same people who want the subways in scarborough are also stop the gravy cut my taxes people. I have said repeatedly I have no problem paying extra taxes for these lines. Now convince the other 2.5 million Torontonians that and we can have a conversation. Instead everyone wants this but then cries poor and begs the provincial government and feds to pay which results in promises with delays and delay and delays in funding simply to buy votes and nothing gets built. Unless Torontonians themselves are going to pay their own share this isnt going to happen economy or not.

 

[DB9]

If they love their place so much why do they care what the rest of Toronto calls them. Shouldnt they be content in what they are. Instead they are hung up on what names people refer to them as. And scarborough is hung up on their fair share in regards to subways. You got your STC subway. And now you arent happy. You keep pushing for more as if the rest of Toronto has subway access at their doorstops. Tell that to people at rexdale. Or people near kipling and lakeshore.

I will never ever use the DRL. I live near bathurst and Eglinton and it really has no purpose to me. But I am not blind enough to think it isnt the better investment choice when there are so few dollars.

Somehow you think there is a government money tree to pay for all this. That or you actually dont care what the better investment is as long as you get your own line. I am not the selfish one in this regard.

The strangest part to all this is that most proponents want the Scarborough subway underground. There doesn't seem to be any serious conversation about having the subway at street level or above ground to save money or make it economically feasible. Sheppard still looks the same as when I grew up there - a wide suburban avenue with a patch work of parking lots, strip malls, gas stations and old apartments. I don't see why we have to spend extra billions on an extravagant tunnel.

 

[Leo_Chan]

I don't get why people want transit expansion but don't want to pay more taxes. Some people want more transit AND less taxes...

 

[sixrings]

As long as we elect conservative mayors I won't believe we're serious about transit