Shabby Public Realm

[fiendishlibrarian]

We talked about using this thread to raise examples that address the public realm in Toronto, so in an effort to do this I'm posting the following pic by ToroTo that was posted in the L Tower thread yesterday...







With so much development happening in the immediate vicinity how is it that the Esplanade should look like this? Again, this is not some side street in the bad part of town, right?

... and let's not wait for some grand vision. There should be a plan in place for reasonable maintenance and finishings. Perhaps the developers in the area should be made to contribute?

To be fair to the area, the Esplanade is a large construction zone right now, with L and Backstage, and the pipe replacement project to the right of the picture. When it gets warmer the BIA does a pretty good job with plantings, flower baskets, maintaining the poles in the area, etc. And I'm assuming a new sidewalk treatment is planned for the north side. A grey, shabby day in Februrary in the middle of a construction staging area is not going to be flattering to the public realm, no matter how well kept it is.

 

[Tewder]

Though I do dismiss the 'February' comment - let's face it Toronto looks like February a lot more often than it doesn't - I do grant you the construction issue. Looking in the other direction (thanks to Google) the Esplanade does look better. Hopefully the standard in the eastern stretch will be continued to Yonge once construction at L and Backstage is complete.

 

[pman]

Could someone please tell me where these cities are that have wonderful sidewalks and streets and spotless parks?

It's sure not New York, the majority of which looks as if someone dropped it. Ditto London and double ditto Rome (although that's part of Rome's charm). I suppose central Paris is reasonably well-kept if you overlook the acres of dog crap and graffiti. Most cities the world over have appalling public spaces.

True, places like Boston and Venice and Bern have quaint cobblestone centers, but those are hardly appropriate for modern development, utilities or traffic. Someone whose idea of a spotless public realm equals Nantucket on a Sunday morning is not who I want in charge of urban policy.

Either we learn to find value in the realm we have or we take the challenge in inventing a new way to deal with our climate, congestion and built environment.

Large parts of Manhattan, seem to manage much wider sidewalks than Toronto, buried hydro wires and a complete absence of those iconic Toronto-style concrete raised planters with dead and dying mini-trees. Ditto Chicago, at least in the Loop and the area north of it. And while I know I'm about to enter a world of examples of crumbling bridges, I have to mention that Montreal does sidewalks, buried wires on main streets and in the core, and basic things like streetlights and trees infinitely better than Toronto. Also check out Sydney and Melbourne, which aren't exactly small cities but again at least seem to care about public space in their core areas. Toronto generally makes no distinction between design of main streets and suburban roads, and creates a uniform level of crap across the city. We then make some kind of Soviet egalitarianism sound like a virtue.

I think the assertion that all the world's cities have appalling public spaces offers an interesting window into the parochial and ambivalent way many, if not most Torontonians view cities. First, it's insular and simply wrong, at least when you're talking about developed country cities Toronto's size or larger. Second, it seems consistent with Toronto's essentially rural/suburban attitude to what a city should be. Toronto Hydro's infrastructure wouldn't be out of place on the average rural concession road, and that appears to be just fine for most of us. Central Toronto's narrow sidewalks privilege cars and parking, which would be the norm in pretty much any North American exurb. I guess there are good reasons why Toronto looks the way it does and will never change, but to assert that the rest of the developed world's cities look just as shabby and anti-urban simply isn't true.

 

[Tewder]

+1 pman!

... and I don't understand what it serves to undermine the glorious public spaces, avenues, gardens and parks of Paris or New York or Chicago and so on. Yes there is dog poop and graffiti and some aweful areas in any of those places but that doesn't negate the excellence that is achieved in other areas.... and you don't have to look to the 'biggies', just look at small cities like Minneapolis and see what they are doing there with architecture, public spaces, urban renewal and so on.

Also, I don't think it has to be about the grand gestures. We just need some standards with sidewalk pavings, hydro poles, greening and plantings. Some very basic stuff here!

 

[Ladies Mile]

+1 pman!

... and I don't understand what it serves to undermine the glorious public spaces, avenues, gardens and parks of Paris or New York or Chicago and so on. Yes there is dog poop and graffiti and some aweful areas in any of those places but that doesn't negate the excellence that is achieved in other areas.... and you don't have to look to the 'biggies', just look at small cities like Minneapolis and see what they are doing there with architecture, public spaces, urban renewal and so on.

Also, I don't think it has to be about the grand gestures. We just need some standards with sidewalk pavings, hydro poles, greening and plantings. Some very basic stuff here!

I work at the corner of Fifth Avenue and 40th Street, right across from the New York Public Library, or, as I like to think of it, the Building Perpetually Covered with Scaffolding and Pigeon Shit. Bryant Park itself is charming and well-maintained, at least when they're not pitching tents for some godawful fashion show or tacky ice skating rink, which is always. And the condition of the sidewalk and streets are in no better shape than they are in an industrial area: potholes, steam vents, cracked and uneven paving stones.

Am I really the only one who notices this?

There are no overhead wires, hooray. There are no streetcars either.

 

[pman]

I work at the corner of Fifth Avenue and 40th Street, right across from the New York Public Library, or, as I like to think of it, the Building Perpetually Covered with Scaffolding and Pigeon Shit. Bryant Park itself is charming and well-maintained, at least when they're not pitching tents for some godawful fashion show or tacky ice skating rink, which is always. And the condition of the sidewalk and streets are in no better shape than they are in an industrial area: potholes, steam vents, cracked and uneven paving stones.

Am I really the only one who notices this?

There are no overhead wires, hooray. There are no streetcars either.

Then you probably notice that Bryant Park is in a class beyond anything in Toronto. And if you walk uptown along Fifth Avenue from Bryant Park you'll probably also notice the generously wide sidewalks, the superb public/private space of Rockefeller Center, the handsome statue of General Sherman at Grand Army Plaza, and the wonderful alley of - mature and not dead! - trees extending up the west side of the street along Central Park. Continuing uptown, you'll eventually come to probably the best Art Gallery on the planet, but since this thread is about public space I'll simply note that the Met's 5th Avenue steps are another glorious public space where lots of people want to congregate. Unlike, say, the Dundas side of AGO. So yes, the public realm in your part of NYC does make Toronto's look like pure unadulterated rust-belt crap.

And don't worry about the scaffolding on the NY Public Library Main Branch, because when it comes off you'll enjoy seeing a wonderful example of Beaux-Arts architecture that we'll never have in Toronto, and if we ever had it we would already have torn it down in the 60's.

OK I know the counterargument - keep walking up Fifth and observe the abject poverty, despair and degradation north of, say, 90th Street and thank God you're a morally superior Canadian. Except, now that I think of it, the public realm on 125th Street would probably be an improvement on most of Toronto.

 

[Grimace]

+1 Ladies Mile. I used to live around the corner from there.

Bryant Park is a one-of-a-kind privately run park that pays for itself. I think the head of Time-Warner started that off. Rockefeller Center was a white elephant paid for by, at the time, the richest family in the world. The Met was paid for (as was the public library well down the street) by various robber barons. Central Park fell into disrepair until the likes of Jackie O started up a non-profit corporation to maintain it. The frequently mentioned Millennium Park in Chicago, also mostly paid for with private money.

The point being, to the extent this thread is focused on city priorities for spending, the parts of NY actually maintained and paid for by the City are in worse shape than in Toronto -- even though we have overhead wires. Step in a NY public school (my wife worked in one) and tell me that they keep those in better shape than we keep ours. Or a subway station, which are not air conditioned in summer.

If you think our rich people aren't paying enough to keep up our public realm, you won't hear a peep from me. But that doesn't seem to have been the gist of this thread. The gist was that we were giving too much to the poor people.

On that last point, I would also note that, to the best of my recollection, Toronto's "public realm" was in its worst shape during the Harris years when social support was cut back and the number of homeless on the streets ballooned.

 

[Ladies Mile]

Then you probably notice that Bryant Park is in a class beyond anything in Toronto. And if you walk uptown along Fifth Avenue from Bryant Park you'll probably also notice the generously wide sidewalks, the superb public/private space of Rockefeller Center, the handsome statue of General Sherman at Grand Army Plaza, and the wonderful alley of - mature and not dead! - trees extending up the west side of the street along Central Park. Continuing uptown, you'll eventually come to probably the best Art Gallery on the planet, but since this thread is about public space I'll simply note that the Met's 5th Avenue steps are another glorious public space where lots of people want to congregate. Unlike, say, the Dundas side of AGO. So yes, the public realm in your part of NYC does make Toronto's look like pure unadulterated rust-belt crap.

And don't worry about the scaffolding on the NY Public Library Main Branch, because when it comes off you'll enjoy seeing a wonderful example of Beaux-Arts architecture that we'll never have in Toronto, and if we ever had it we would already have torn it down in the 60's.

OK I know the counterargument - keep walking up Fifth and observe the abject poverty, despair and degradation north of, say, 90th Street and thank God you're a morally superior Canadian. Except, now that I think of it, the public realm on 125th Street would probably be an improvement on most of Toronto.

So poverty is NOT part of upper Fifth Avenue? And note that I didn't start my argument with that location. I'm looking at the infrastructure right under my feet during my morning commute.

"a wonderful example of Beaux-Arts architecture that we'll never have in Toronto."

So then what's the point of holding it up as a standard? We won't have 16th century Florentine palaces either. Time to deal with it and move on, I say (and Florence is even dirtier and more degraded than New York, unless you think when you sneeze it should come out black).

"you'll probably also notice the generously wide sidewalks."

No. I am too busy avoiding being stomped flat by the extraordinarily wide pedestrians.

 

[Ladies Mile]

+1 Ladies Mile. I used to live around the corner from there.

Bryant Park is a one-of-a-kind privately run park that pays for itself. I think the head of Time-Warner started that off. Rockefeller Center was a white elephant paid for by, at the time, the richest family in the world. The Met was paid for (as was the public library well down the street) by various robber barons. Central Park fell into disrepair until the likes of Jackie O started up a non-profit corporation to maintain it. The frequently mentioned Millennium Park in Chicago, also mostly paid for with private money.

The point being, to the extent this thread is focused on city priorities for spending, the parts of NY actually maintained and paid for by the City are in worse shape than in Toronto -- even though we have overhead wires. Step in a NY public school (my wife worked in one) and tell me that they keep those in better shape than we keep ours. Or a subway station, which are not air conditioned in summer.

If you think our rich people aren't paying enough to keep up our public realm, you won't hear a peep from me. But that doesn't seem to have been the gist of this thread. The gist was that we were giving too much to the poor people.

On that last point, I would also note that, to the best of my recollection, Toronto's "public realm" was in its worst shape during the Harris years when social support was cut back and the number of homeless on the streets ballooned.

I would go one step further and say that past the bare bones of sewage pipes and lightly-paved streets, there is no public realm in New York.

Anything notable was developed through private initiatives or privately formed non-profits, up to and including recent additions such as the New Museum, the High Line and the restoration of Columbus Circle. This includes the subways, Grand Central Terminal, Central Park, Riverside Drive, Columbia University and scores of other facilities that visitors assume are "public."

 

[yin_yang]

Sometimes I wish I was bill gates rich. id run for mayor on the platform that I was going to pay for transit out of my own pocket if elected. Then Id build a DRL down don mills through downtown and up Jane. Then for every other major street Id put down LRT (lawrence, wilson, keele, kipling, victoria park, warden). Then Id pay for the olympics buy a NFL franchise and a second NHL team. Finally Ill buy a penthouse and thats it.

word. that is exactly what i would do. "share" 90-95%, "keep" 5-10%.

 

[Tewder]

Bryant Park is a one-of-a-kind privately run park that pays for itself. I think the head of Time-Warner started that off. Rockefeller Center was a white elephant paid for by, at the time, the richest family in the world. The Met was paid for (as was the public library well down the street) by various robber barons. Central Park fell into disrepair until the likes of Jackie O started up a non-profit corporation to maintain it. The frequently mentioned Millennium Park in Chicago, also mostly paid for with private money.

... and what exactly is Dundas Square? Private or public? Who knows??

Public spaces and parks in NYC (in America in general) are built, funded and/or maintained by various means, both private and public. What's wrong with that? What's more, none of your strawmen arguments about robber barons, Jackie O or the past condition of Central Park have any bearing on the issue of Toronto's shabby public realm.

Bryant Park itself is charming and well-maintained, at least when they're not pitching tents for some godawful fashion show or tacky ice skating rink, which is always.

Again, ever been to Dundas Square?

Sounds like you're a little weary of NYC Ladies Mile and just need a vacation away? Come to Toronto and sample the public spaces here, which would be a good tonic for how you feel about the equivalents there!

And the condition of the sidewalk and streets are in no better shape than they are in an industrial area: potholes, steam vents, cracked and uneven paving stones.

Am I really the only one who notices this?

There are no overhead wires, hooray. There are no streetcars either.

Oh we've got far more than that for you to enjoy... Hydro poles (often leaning and covered in staples and posters), mismatched light standards all at the same intersection, gum-stained and asphalt patched sidewalks, weeds and dead trees everywhere (where there is any greenery to start with), broken fountains, construction hoarding and dead zones literally everywhere... heck, you can appreciate all of this and more right in the central city, right in our tourist zones, even within NPS itself!

... and I'm not suggesting there aren't bad areas in NYC or that aren't some nice areas in Toronto (good grief). We're talking about more pervasive issues.

 

[Register123]

^^^Completely agree with Tewder. I lived in NYC for 10 years '99-2009. I was shocked at the state of Toronto's public realm in comparison when I moved here. Where are Toronto's billionaires? Galen I'm looking at you , pony up some coin lets do this city up right!

 

[pman]

Unfortunately, I think Ladies Mile and Grimace are more representative of Torontonian views of the public realm here and in other cities, than Tewder, Register 123 or me. I was struck by their inability to distinguish between public space under construction - the references to exposed sewer pipes and scaffolding on the Main Branch of NYC Public Library - and the finished product. I think some of us are concerned not about the mess caused by construction but by what passes for the finished product in Toronto. I was also struck by Ladies Mile's sarcastic reference to the fat Americans he has to dodge on NYC sidewalks. I've spent enough time in Manhattan to question the factual basis of that comment, but more to the point it does reveal a pervasive and unjustified Canadian sense of smug superiority towards the US. That complacent self-regard seems to carry over to Torontonians' views of cities in other countries - focus on the dog shit on Paris sidewalks and you'll miss the sheer delight of being a pedestrian there. Actually, I agree the dog shit on Paris sidewalks is a problem. But it doesn't detract from the fact that the way Parisians design, build and maintain their public spaces is light years ahead of Toronto, and - cue the moral outrage and get the MEC Wanderer out of Dad's basement cause we're going to Occupy this space - we may actually have something to learn from them.

 

[nstuch]

Tewder, in my eyes the Esplanade is close to as good as it gets in Toronto regarding aesthetics! feast your eyes on the recently completed traffic island at Bathurst and Lake Shore, complete with metal railing of the calibre that they install in sewage plants (already bent and broken by the way), compared to a random equivalent in London

what an embarrassment this city is

 

[Grimace]

Unfortunately, I think Ladies Mile and Grimace are more representative of Torontonian views of the public realm here and in other cities, than Tewder, Register 123 or me. I was struck by their inability to distinguish between public space under construction - the references to exposed sewer pipes and scaffolding on the Main Branch of NYC Public Library - and the finished product. I think some of us are concerned not about the mess caused by construction but by what passes for the finished product in Toronto. I was also struck by Ladies Mile's sarcastic reference to the fat Americans he has to dodge on NYC sidewalks. I've spent enough time in Manhattan to question the factual basis of that comment, but more to the point it does reveal a pervasive and unjustified Canadian sense of smug superiority towards the US. That complacent self-regard seems to carry over to Torontonians' views of cities in other countries - focus on the dog shit on Paris sidewalks and you'll miss the sheer delight of being a pedestrian there. Actually, I agree the dog shit on Paris sidewalks is a problem. But it doesn't detract from the fact that the way Parisians design, build and maintain their public spaces is light years ahead of Toronto, and - cue the moral outrage and get the MEC Wanderer out of Dad's basement cause we're going to Occupy this space - we may actually have something to learn from them.

I'm not sure why I'm being accused of not being able to distinguish between buildings that are under construction and the final product. It was Tewder who posted a picture to demonstrate "shabby public realm" which is primarily showing L Tower construction. I was not "+1"-ing Ladies Mile's comment on the scaffolding on the public library specifically - most of the time I was there it was not under construction and one of my favourite buildings. I have a very large pastel of 42nd Street, Bryant Park and the public library hanging in my house.

I love NY (and agree, NYers were not, in my experience, any heavier than Torontonians -- maybe the opposite). I wasn't criticizing the public/private aspect of Bryant Park or other things in NY. I think it's great that the large number of very wealthy NYers put money in the city. NY beats Toronto and every other city in North America, including Chicago, hands down on great buildings and public spaces. This is as a result of history, money and the tremendous vision of a relatively small number of people over the past 200-300 years. It is not because either (1) the City of New York, as a municipality, is TODAY better at maintaining the public realm or (2) because the average New Yorker is more concerned about the public realm. Walk around the litter strewn streets of much of Manhattan on a Sunday morning and tell me the average NYer is concerned about the public realm.

The only two points I have really been trying to present in this thread are (1) improvements to the public realm cost money and if the City is to spend more on public realm I'm not convinced it should come from REDUCING the amount we spend on social services; and (2) overhead wires aside, I don't think we compare badly to most North American cities if you are talking about actual maintenance by the City of the public realm that it maintains. I am not talking about beaux arts museums and Central Parks and bridges. NY, Chicago and San Fran got us beat on those. But the portions of NY actually maintained by the City of New York are not maintained better than comparable spaces in Toronto.