Shabby Public Realm

[MisterF]

Ah, c'mon Mister F -- Forgotten is totally adding to the conversation, albeit not in the 'sky is falling' mode that is the norm on this thread. I do appreciate Armour's epic rant -- it's for that kind of belly-laugh-inducing screed that I occasionally dip into this thread.

Toronto is a beautiful city with lots of construction activity, and sometimes those two goals don't quite match up with what some UT aesthetes wish to have happen. This thread gives them the chance to vent -- would you rather they took up a sandwich board in NPS? (Actually... that'd be kind of fun to see. "I'm marching until we get bronze streetlamps at least out to the Queensway!")

That the rest of us occasionally make fun of over-the-top rants about how the 'city just doesn't care' is just grist for the mill...

I'm not quite sure what you're arguing here. That because we look better than Mumbai that's good enough? That we should strive to look like a city where most of the people don't have indoor plumbing?

Toronto isn't a beautiful city. It's vibrant, creative, and economically powerful but beautiful it isn't. Architecturally we're no Paris and there's nothing wrong with that...and there's not much we can do about it for our existing building stock anyway. But there's no reason that we can't have the same streetscape standards as any of the great cities of the world. We can have wider sidewalks made of something other than poured concrete, at least in busy areas. We can hide our hydro wires. We can have better street furniture and landscaping. In short, we don't have to settle "better than Jakarta".

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Toronto. Is. A. Beautiful. City.

The Islands are beautiful. Queen's Park and the University of Toronto are beautiful. The ravines are beautiful (particularly Taylor Creek, IMHO.) The Beaches boardwalk is beautiful. High Park is beautiful. The iconic view of the CN Tower and SkyDome from the islands is beautiful. The AGO is beautiful. The Royal Alex is beautiful. The new L tower is beautiful. Union Station is beautiful. St. Lawrence Market (particularly the SE corner, due to the perfect juxtaposition of bagel, cream cheese, and smoked salmon purveyors) is beautiful. Sunnybrook Park is beautiful. The TD towers are beautiful. The real ales at C'est What? are beautiful. The girls parading on College and the fashionistas shopping Yorkville are beautiful. Yorkville Park is beautiful. Nathan Phillips Square is beautiful. Old City Hall is beautiful.

Y'all need to give your heads a shake. You spend so much time pissing & moaning about the things you don't like about Toronto that you fail to enjoy the beautiful parts of it.

Now, y'all can go ahead and say, well, UofT would be great if they didn't have utility cuts in the sidewalks and ignore the Pharmacy building. Whinge about the streetlights on University rather than enjoying the architecture of Queen's Park. Kvetch about the mottled colouring of the ROM Crystal. Bellyache about overhead power lines on suburban streets. But all or most of your complaints are minor items. They really, really are.

 

[Lenser]

Yeah, Toronto - world's ugliest burg. You really can't exaggerate about how awful it is. Why the citizenry hasn't collectively committed mass suicide already from sheer despair is beyond me. What a wretched, wretched place.

 

[Armour]

Toronto. Is. A. Beautiful. City.

The Islands are beautiful. Queen's Park and the University of Toronto are beautiful. The ravines are beautiful (particularly Taylor Creek, IMHO.) The Beaches boardwalk is beautiful. High Park is beautiful. The iconic view of the CN Tower and SkyDome from the islands is beautiful. The AGO is beautiful. The Royal Alex is beautiful. The new L tower is beautiful. Union Station is beautiful. St. Lawrence Market (particularly the SE corner, due to the perfect juxtaposition of bagel, cream cheese, and smoked salmon purveyors) is beautiful. Sunnybrook Park is beautiful. The TD towers are beautiful. The real ales at C'est What? are beautiful. The girls parading on College and the fashionistas shopping Yorkville are beautiful. Yorkville Park is beautiful. Nathan Phillips Square is beautiful. Old City Hall is beautiful.

Y'all need to give your heads a shake. You spend so much time pissing & moaning about the things you don't like about Toronto that you fail to enjoy the beautiful parts of it.

Now, y'all can go ahead and say, well, UofT would be great if they didn't have utility cuts in the sidewalks and ignore the Pharmacy building. Whinge about the streetlights on University rather than enjoying the architecture of Queen's Park. Kvetch about the mottled colouring of the ROM Crystal. Bellyache about overhead power lines on suburban streets. But all or most of your complaints are minor items. They really, really are.

Queen's Park is really not that beautiful (it will be when the revitalization is done). Right now, the paths are a mess, benches look like they survived a war, the grass is a mess, several surface parking lots are on the grounds of the legislature, etc. Our ravines do have many beautiful aspects, but they're even more neglected than our streets, parks, etc. Most of them are riddled with artificial objects like gabions, armourstone retaining walls, chunks of concrete lying in our rivers and creeks, litter galore, invasive species (dog strangling vine, namely) choking out native vegetation, etc. Sites like this are not uncommon in our ravines (photo by me):

And pointing out Toronto's failings doesn't mean that we don't enjoy anything in this city. There is plenty to love about Toronto, but there is also loads to criticize. Let me put it another way. Think of the city as a friend or sibling that is addicted to jenkem. You love that person and know that they possess good characteristics; butt you really wish they would stop smelling poo.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Queen's Park is really not that beautiful (it will be when the revitalization is done). Right now, the paths are a mess, benches look like they survived a war, the grass is a mess, several surface parking lots are on the grounds of the legislature, etc. Our ravines do have many beautiful aspects, but they're even more neglected than our streets, parks, etc. Most of them are riddled with artificial objects like gabions, armourstone retaining walls, chunks of concrete lying in our rivers and creeks, litter galore, invasive species (dog strangling vine, namely) choking out native vegetation, etc. Sites like this are not uncommon in our ravines (photo by me).

And pointing out Toronto's failings doesn't mean that we don't enjoy anything in this city. There is plenty to love about Toronto, but there is also loads to criticize. Let me put it another way. Think of the city as a friend or sibling that is addicted to jenkem. You love that person and know that they possess good characteristics; butt you really wish they would stop smelling poo.

So, last attempt and then I'll stop. First, though, a couple of asides: 1. I meant Queen's Park the building, although your complaining about the park and the parking lots fits into your incessant whingeing lifestyle, so fill your boots. And 2. I had to look up 'jenkem' and the fact that you went there really illustrates your dark view of the world. It's not Toronto -- it's you.

But here's my last attempt at persuading you that Toronto is not at all shabby, but actually gorgeous: That picture is of Taylor Creek. I don't know when you took it, but when my kids were at Monarch Park we tried to get that piece of tarp out of the creek bed when we did their annual 'green clean' in the fall of... 2013, I guess. The reason the tarp is exposed and the bike path crumbling is the major floods that took out the bridges in TC the winter before. While it would be nice to clean this up, it was considered considerably more important by the Parks staff to replace the bridges that were destroyed in the same flooding. Those bridges are now replaced and the park trails once again work.

Despite your dismal outlook on the world and TC, this is one of my absolute favourite jogging/biking parts of the city. I lived at Woodbine/Cosburn and a quick jog through Stan Gundy takes you past a retirement home and community garden, then down a green slope to the bike path. Early, it's quiet (though not on the weekends, with bicyclists and baby stroller jogger types taking full advantage of the path) and it is an absolutely magical green universe. The bike path leads to a couple of different marshes filled with bulrushes, lilies, ducks, red-winged blackbirds, etc.

A different view of TC park:

And, sure, there's an underpass at Dawes Road (I think?) where there's sometimes graffiti and/or guys sleeping rough. And part of the bike path may still be crumbling. But you walked through a magical part of Toronto and only saw one of the few bad things in ~5km of trail. Restez zen, my friend, and open your eyes to Toronto's beauty.

/rant

 

[pman]

I agree that Toronto has many nice parks and semi-wild spaces, but what we actually build ourselves is mostly awful. Sure there are some areas that are well designed and constructed, like the single block in front of Union Station or the 1.7km of Queen's Quay West. But the overwhelming majority of our public realm - sidewalks, streets, streetlights, street trees, stop lights, street signs, and public spaces - is poorly designed, cluttered, ugly, cheaply constructed and badly maintained, if maintained at all. I think people here are commenting on that aspect of our public realm rather than on our (generally great) ravines.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

One of the worst examples has got to be the Yonge Dundas area - here is an area used intensely by tourists and yet utterly unpresentable, with poorly designed, maintained and managed public and quasi-public spaces.

AoD

 

[Tewder]

Toronto. Is. A. Beautiful. City.

No. Toronto has some beautiful natural graces, i.e. the beautiful fall colours elevate any street scene in Toronto, as an example... and Toronto has moments of beauty in its architecture and urban form. To call the city as a whole beautiful, however, is simply not objective. I understand that people love their city and see the beauty in it (as your schmaltz about pretty girls in Yorkville exemplifies) but this is about as objective as a mother who only sees beauty in her child.

Y'all need to give your heads a shake. You spend so much time pissing & moaning about the things you don't like about Toronto that you fail to enjoy the beautiful parts of it.

Correct me if i'm wrong but this is the 'Shabby Public Realm' thread, right? If criticisms bother you so much why bother with this particular thread? This thread was created as a safe haven from people like you who constantly attack anyone who doesn't rhapsodize about the state of the city's realm.

 

[Adjei]

One of the worst examples has got to be the Yonge Dundas area - here is an area used intensely by tourists and yet utterly unpresentable, with poorly designed, maintained and managed public and quasi-public spaces.

AoD

Don't get me started and this is supposed to be one of the prime areas of the city. The same thing with Bay and Queen in front of City Hall. Why do they allow all these rusting hydro poles all to still stand. Too many examples to list. It really shows a city that doesn't care about its appearance or maintenance.

 

[Armour]

So, last attempt and then I'll stop. First, though, a couple of asides: 1. I meant Queen's Park the building, although your complaining about the park and the parking lots fits into your incessant whingeing lifestyle, so fill your boots. And 2. I had to look up 'jenkem' and the fact that you went there really illustrates your dark view of the world. It's not Toronto -- it's you.

But here's my last attempt at persuading you that Toronto is not at all shabby, but actually gorgeous: That picture is of Taylor Creek. I don't know when you took it, but when my kids were at Monarch Park we tried to get that piece of tarp out of the creek bed when we did their annual 'green clean' in the fall of... 2013, I guess. The reason the tarp is exposed and the bike path crumbling is the major floods that took out the bridges in TC the winter before. While it would be nice to clean this up, it was considered considerably more important by the Parks staff to replace the bridges that were destroyed in the same flooding. Those bridges are now replaced and the park trails once again work.

Despite your dismal outlook on the world and TC, this is one of my absolute favourite jogging/biking parts of the city. I lived at Woodbine/Cosburn and a quick jog through Stan Gundy takes you past a retirement home and community garden, then down a green slope to the bike path. Early, it's quiet (though not on the weekends, with bicyclists and baby stroller jogger types taking full advantage of the path) and it is an absolutely magical green universe. The bike path leads to a couple of different marshes filled with bulrushes, lilies, ducks, red-winged blackbirds, etc.

A different view of TC park:

And, sure, there's an underpass at Dawes Road (I think?) where there's sometimes graffiti and/or guys sleeping rough. And part of the bike path may still be crumbling. But you walked through a magical part of Toronto and only saw one of the few bad things in ~5km of trail. Restez zen, my friend, and open your eyes to Toronto's beauty.

/rant

Complaints about the condition of the park are valid (and acknowledged by the ongoing revitalization plan). I'm not the only one that felt it needed a makeover, and I'm sure many here would agree that it is ridiculous to have surface parking lots on the grounds of such an important site. It should be a pristine piece of land, with the highest aesthetic standards; if not there, then where would be more appropriate than our provincial building grounds? And the jenkem reference was meant as comic relief. How does that demonstrate a dark view of the world? It was a silly joke that was meant to make a point in a farcical way. Not everyone's kind of humour, I suppose.

I don't need persuading. I agree that Toronto has some really nice aspects. By my stating that Toronto is ugly, it's not meant to be taken as an all encompassing label. Beauty can be found everywhere, to a certain extent. But the majority of the city looks horrible, and I'm not alone with that sentiment.

That photo of that creek I took was taken last year. That damage occurred in the flood of 2005. 10 years later (and there are problems that go back much further), nothing has been done to remediate it. It's things like that make me cynical of our politicians and citizens. If nothing has been done to fix that in 10 years, then I imagine another 10 will go by and it will still look the same. What's going to change in the minds of people within the next decade that will get them to act on this and similar situations? Something like this could be fixed so easily, but that requires paying higher taxes so we can have nice public parks; but no one wants to pay a dime more in this city; we're total misers. As a result, we're left with these types of disgraces. Almost any other city on the planet would put forth the necessary effort to address this, but we just turn a blind eye and pretend that everything is alright. Don't you understand where this frustration stems from? I love this city so much, but it hurts to see us just scrape by instead of being more responsible and respectable in regard to how we present ourselves. If most of the world's cities (3rd world cities notwithstanding) were represented by guests at a ball, the vast majority of them would be dressed in tuxedos and gowns, and Toronto would show up in crusty sweat pants with holes in the knees and a tank top with relish stains on it.

How do I have a dismal outlook on the world (if anything, I'm rating other places above us, aesthetically)? And when did I ever mention Taylor Creek Park? My photo was taken elsewhere; not in that particular ravine. If you really want to enjoy the beauty of Taylor Creek Park, I suggest hiking along the slopes of the ravine (the off road bike paths). Personally, I find that more enjoyable than sticking to the paved paths. The former is more of a challenge, less predictable and really makes you feel like you're immersed in the woods. I always look for those less traveled pathways whenever I go hiking. They're more quiet and you discover more secrets when you stray from the paved ones.

I understand that I'm mostly reflecting on negative aspects of our public realm, but that is the exact purpose of this thread. Toronto's strengths are evident and don't need as much discussion; it is our weaknesses that aren't talked about enough and that's where we need to focus more attention, in order to raise our standards and improve our city. If we just continue to be happy with operating on a comfortable enough level, then we basically thwart any progress and everything stays the same.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

If that's not Taylor Creek near the O'Connor bridge, there is an exact duplicate of the TC creek bed somewhere else. Where is it?

If the damage was done in 2005 and you're taking a picture in 2014, did you inquire as to why it's taking so long?

Yeah, a jenkum reference as 'comic relief' is repulsive. Your sense of 'farcical' is... earthy.

And, while Tewder is more than a bit prissy about things that bother him/her, he/she also makes neutral or positive comments on other threads. You and Adjei, to take two examples, are posters who have never posted a positive comment that I can recall. I've only blocked ksun, as I actually like to read other people's takes on the world that I don't agree with, but IMHO you've never demonstrated any constructive or positive commentary.

And -- and I KNOW this is the 'Shabby Public Realm' thread, but:

If most of the world's cities (3rd world cities notwithstanding) were represented by guests at a ball, the vast majority of them would be dressed in tuxedos and gowns, and Toronto would show up in crusty sweat pants with holes in the knees and a tank top with relish stains on it.

C'mon.

 

[salsa]

I've only blocked ksun...

+1

 

[Armour]

If that's not Taylor Creek near the O'Connor bridge, there is an exact duplicate of the TC creek bed somewhere else. Where is it?

If the damage was done in 2005 and you're taking a picture in 2014, did you inquire as to why it's taking so long?

It's Deerlick Creek in Brookbanks Park.

http://www.thestar.com/yourtoronto/..._plagued_by_damage_from_2005_flash_flood.html

It's taking so long because we don't invest in parts of the city that are hidden from view from most people (we don't really invest in the more visible areas either; and course because our citizens are largely apathetic and refuse to pay a little more in taxes to have attractive neighbourhoods). And at least part of the blame lies with the local City Councillor; Mr. Public Realm himself: DMW. This is his Sugar Beach (this gives you an idea of where his standards come from). I imagine he would be ok if our central waterfront looked similar. Is it any wonder that he doesn't care about our waterfront when his own backyard, so to speak, looks like this? Denzil is kind of like Frank Drebin from Naked Gun. He's completely oblivious to his surroundings and is constantly making a fool of himself.

Another problem is that our suburbs (as it pertains to this case) have no civic engagement, whatsoever. Most people drive everywhere and probably never walk through their local neighbourhoods and thus never get a sense of the way things really are. Throw in the fact that homeowners in the suburbs have large backyards; this means they don't need to go to parks to relax and get some fresh air and greenery. They can remain on their own properties basically all the time, and when they do leave, they get in their cars and drive somewhere else. With all that in mind, most people that live near this particular ravine and others like it -- we're talking thousands of people -- don't even walk through them (many have probably never stepped foot in them). Without enough public awareness, there is no pressure to act on matters like this. Why spend money on things that don't affect very many people? You can rest assured that if there was a strong demand from locals that something be done, we would see some action; but that's the problem with this city. Outside of downtown, there is basically no voice to keep City Councillors and other civic servants, on their toes. It must be easy for the likes of Denzil to just sit around and give nothing back to his community. He's been getting paid a yearly salary, since 1994, to do who knows what? He probably secretly laughs, in the privacy of his own home, at the ignorance and gullibility of those that keep reelecting him. Same goes for Mammo, and all the other useless CC, that keep their jobs each election cycle. It's kind of strange that this city is full of people that chastise our municipal leaders, yet they keep voting the same people into power. City Hall needs a major shakeup. We really need to somehow level the playing field so that those with real conviction and vision have a chance to be elected, and not just incumbents and candidates with the most money and business connections. Until then, some Councillors will stay, and others will be replaced with equally mundane choices.

 

[Forgotten]

Don't get me started and this is supposed to be one of the prime areas of the city. The same thing with Bay and Queen in front of City Hall. Why do they allow all these rusting hydro poles all to still stand. Too many examples to list. It really shows a city that doesn't care about its appearance or maintenance.

I humbly suggest you and your closest allies assemble a force and march down Yonge Street to Nathan Philips Square to stage a mass cry-in, in a place where your demands for relief from the authorities can be heard. Success or seppuku... HONOUR demands it.

 

[niwell]

The whole "Toronto has the worst public realm in the world" thing is wearing a little thin. Obviously MANY aspects could be improved but I question how many places some of these forumers have been to. I just got back from New Orleans which is an amazing city in many respects. But the public realm is shit. Aside from maybe Jackson Square the public realm is abhorrent. Sidewalks aren't level, tons of potholes and most public parks are beyond overgrown. This is in the nice areas too that were never even flooded out- the Lower Ninth Ward is another story entirely. And overhead power lines on every commercial street outside the French Quarter.

That aside I think people here focus too much on the aesthetics of the public realm. I know almost everyone will disagree but to me that is secondary. I'd love both, but Toronto's public realm is very functional. Take for instance, Chicago. Chicago has pretty much one great park system along the lake. The rest of the parks are disjointed and not too functional. The Boulevard areas are finally coming into their own but that's only due to gentrification. I'll take some unkempt grass in a useable park over that system any day.