September 11th: Real or Fraud?

[Second_in_pie]

I can tell you focus on things that help you convince yourself that there's no way it was a conspiracy, you haven't looked much at the other side and especially not with an open mind. You've been conditioned and are probably too far gone from what I can see.. sorry.

You're either incredibly thick or trolling your ass off. You assume that your evidence is so amazingly proving of your argument that it's impossible for someone looking at it "with an open mind" to deny the truth of your statement. In reality, when someone actually analyzes it, it's full of so many holes, gigantic logical leaps, and assumptions with no basis other than to continue the argument to a conclusion that there are countless conspiracies everywhere. But as soon as someone discredits your information and points out all of the problems in your logic, apparently the only way for us to be thinking properly is to be taking your exact opinion. Since you may not be able to realize it, there's absolutely no logic in that argument.

A very large portion of these conspiracy ideas are a combination of very unlikely events and flying leaps of logic in ungrounded assumptions. Occam's razor might be wrong in very certain situations, but dozens of totally unlikely events as well as assumptions up the ass make an act screamingly unlikely. Mostly, it's grounded on the assumption that people would be willing to do anything in power, and that humans are all naturally evil and completely amoral. There might be some figures that are completely psychopathic, but when conspiracies involve dozens if not hundreds of players all being "in on the conspiracy," it's just impossible to credit. The only explanation is that you and other people believing in conspiracy theories are under the belief that anyone is willing to do anything in search of power (and the benefits of some conspiracies to certain people continue to be unfounded.) The fact is that it's been scientifically proven that this fact is false. I'd like you to tell me why, psychologically, George Bush or some head of the CIA would want to sacrifice thousands of american lives, along with dozens if not hundreds of bureaucratically managed underdogs. Tell me how they rationalize it, and what exactly the benefits to all of these people?

 

[neuhaus]

jeez, someone please kill this thread!

we should leave the poll postings to interchange42.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

after reading this thread yesterday, i can honestly say that i woke up today and smelled the coffee. i am no longer asleep.

well, since nobody replied to this i might as well come out and make my point known. sometimes you gotta take things how they appear. sometimes there's no deeper purpose, hidden message, etc. i read the thread the night before. i woke up the next day to the smell of coffee and i wasn't asleep because i was obviously awake to reply to the thread.


*and yes, i am aware of the contradiction of what i did having a deeper purpose. though the actual statement had no deeper purpose, the reason why i made it, did.

 

[Kamuix]

You're either incredibly thick or trolling your ass off. You assume that your evidence is so amazingly proving of your argument that it's impossible for someone looking at it "with an open mind" to deny the truth of your statement. In reality, when someone actually analyzes it, it's full of so many holes, gigantic logical leaps, and assumptions with no basis other than to continue the argument to a conclusion that there are countless conspiracies everywhere.

See now you're accusing me of trolling?... Did you even read carefully through what I posted? I don't assume and even more I never offered anything as proof. One of the main attacks you guys use against me is dismissing what i have to say all in one by creating the illusion that I'm offering everything as evidence when I clearly said many times that I'm just trying to get people to look outside the box etc.. look back at my earlier posts. And while doing this of course you ignore and dodge the key things that I say. In other words you refuse to go into any depth in discussing and stick to narrow minded generalizations which is exactly what you're doing now... Common man.. Why the need to manipulate, generalize and dodge & ignore?

A very large portion of these conspiracy ideas are a combination of very unlikely events and flying leaps of logic in ungrounded assumptions.

I wish that were true. But have you actually taken a look at them? I can promise you they're way more then that. You really need to learn depth and open-mindedness.

Occam's razor might be wrong in very certain situations, but dozens of totally unlikely events as well as assumptions up the ass make an act screamingly unlikely. Mostly, it's grounded on the assumption that people would be willing to do anything in power, and that humans are all naturally evil and completely amoral. There might be some figures that are completely psychopathic, but when conspiracies involve dozens if not hundreds of players all being "in on the conspiracy," it's just impossible to credit. The only explanation is that you and other people believing in conspiracy theories are under the belief that anyone is willing to do anything in search of power (and the benefits of some conspiracies to certain people continue to be unfounded.) The fact is that it's been scientifically proven that this fact is false. I'd like you to tell me why, psychologically, George Bush or some head of the CIA would want to sacrifice thousands of american lives, along with dozens if not hundreds of bureaucratically managed underdogs. Tell me how they rationalize it, and what exactly the benefits to all of these people?

I know it can be hard to imagine, but if you look at the past, it's happened too many times in history to assume it's impossible. Governments in the past have become corrupt and used many methods against it's people that ours uses today.. For example Germany in world war 2. Again I see what you're saying but you've decided to dismiss it all way too early without taking a closer look into it. You need to be open minded and let go of your doubts before you analyze things.

One thing I've made it a point to do is address every point someone here makes... And when someone asks me why I missed something.. I'll immediately go back and address it. Yet you guys continue to dodge so many points I made at every turn and refuse to go into any depth but rather just generalize and attack. I've come out and asked many questions that go answered.
But you have to actually address it in depth rather than a generalizing that doesn't answer the question.

But if I'm so crazy.. then why the need to manipulate, attack, generalize, dodge & ignore?

Depth and an open-mind is hard to come across around here for some reason..

 

[Second_in_pie]

I know it can be hard to imagine, but if you look at the past, it's happened too many times in history to assume it's impossible. Governments in the past have become corrupt and used many methods against it's people that ours uses today.. For example Germany in world war 2. Again I see what you're saying but you've decided to dismiss it all way too early without taking a closer look into it. You need to be open minded and let go of your doubts before you analyze things.

One thing I've made it a point to do is address every point someone here makes... And when someone asks me why I missed something.. I'll immediately go back and address it. Yet you guys continue to dodge so many points I made at every turn and refuse to go into any depth but rather just generalize and attack. I've come out and asked many questions that go answered.
But you have to actually address it in depth rather than a generalizing that doesn't answer the question.

But if I'm so crazy.. then why the need to manipulate, attack, generalize, dodge & ignore?

Depth and an open-mind is hard to come across around here for some reason..

In Nazi Germany, two things happened. Firstly, people very well knew what was going on. They knew that they were lead by a hateful, dangerous madman. It was part of his election platform. And people did speak out against him... they were stuck in concentration camps and worked to death. That's a pretty stark contrast from your proposed governments doing everything in total secrecy, for what seems to be an agenda of nothing more than being evil. And all the people "speaking out" at this have little in the way of evidence that anti-Nazis did, yet are just getting politely ignored by the rest of the populace.

And no, you don't address each point. You apply gratuitous amounts of filler and detours around the issue. If someone explicitly comes up to you and says that an airplane could easily take down the WTC, here's how they did it, you just deflect with "oh but you have to trust me that the government really did this!" There's no argument there. At all. As you said just there, it's all about being "open minded." You seem to take open mindedness towards your issue as completely siding with you. In truth, all of these people have been "open minded." They looked at your evidence, and analyzed it's merits and flaws. It's been dismissed because it's been proven wrong, not looked at with an unopen mind. How bout you be open minded and look through a glass where every single person in the world isn't an evil powermonger seeking world domination?

 

[PinkLucy]

Good luck with that ^^^ SiP

 

[kettal]

I know it can be hard to imagine, but if you look at the past, it's happened too many times in history to assume it's impossible. Governments in the past have become corrupt and used many methods against it's people that ours uses today.. For example Germany in world war 2. Again I see what you're saying but you've decided to dismiss it all way too early without taking a closer look into it. You need to be open minded and let go of your doubts before you analyze things.

Come to think of it, Alex Jones is a lot like Hitler. Paranoid as hell, full of conspiracy theories, and for some reason people believe what he spews.

 

[gristle]

Kamuix, rather than trying to divert the thread into what clearly is not one of your intellectual strengths - discussions about the mind - why don't you start producing evidence regarding your 9/11 conspiracy beliefs. I know you will fail to do so once again, so I will tell you straight up that it is quite evident that you have no evidence and that you do know what verifiable evidence is.

Regarding your superficial theories of mind, you could also provide evidence for that too.

If you dare.

 

[PinkLucy]

He doesn't have to provide evidence, he just knows, and it's everyone else's narrow-mindedness that is the problem.

 

[Jaye101]

I want to know who the 27 people on this poll who think its an inside job...so I can take their right to vote away (as they are obviously too stupid to understand reality properly).

I find it so strange that one would believe that they know everything that goes on in this world, people so sure that those in control of the world around them wouldn't conspire to gain more and more control over our minds. Sounds far fetched right? I think so too. Personally I believe that 9/11 was real, but for anyone to say that it surely isn't a fraud is delusional. We don't know, and we probably will never know.

The same goes for the moon landing. I personally believe it was a planned American tactic to show their domination over the Soviet Union. It's hard to believe we went there in the 60s when we haven't been their since. The motives were very real in the era, and now the same agency is claiming that they have now found traces of water on the moon without even stepping foot there? Combined that with the fact that technology has advanced ten fold and the first manned mission to the moon is planned 60 years after the first - almost a whole lifetime... It just doesn't make sense to me. But for me to say I was sure it is a hoax would be ignorant.

 

[Epi]

I find it so strange that one would believe that they know everything that goes on in this world, people so sure that those in control of the world around them wouldn't conspire to gain more and more control over our minds. Sounds far fetched right? I think so too. Personally I believe that 9/11 was real, but for anyone to say that it surely isn't a fraud is delusional. We don't know, and we probably will never know.

The same goes for the moon landing. I personally believe it was a planned American tactic to show their domination over the Soviet Union. It's hard to believe we went there in the 60s when we haven't been their since. The motives were very real in the era, and now the same agency is claiming that they have now found traces of water on the moon without even stepping foot there? Combined that with the fact that technology has advanced ten fold and the first manned mission to the moon is planned 60 years after the first - almost a whole lifetime... It just doesn't make sense to me. But for me to say I was sure it is a hoax would be ignorant.

Er if the moon landing were a hoax, the Soviet Union would have debunked it decades ago, considering they sent tons of probes to the moon and took lots of pictures. Not to mention all of the other countries that have been to the moon...

But the real conspiracy is the fact that the 'scientists' want us to think that the Earth is actually ROUND... ITS FLAT PEOPLE.

 

[GraphicMatt]

I find it so strange that one would believe that they know everything that goes on in this world, people so sure that those in control of the world around them wouldn't conspire to gain more and more control over our minds. Sounds far fetched right? I think so too. Personally I believe that 9/11 was real, but for anyone to say that it surely isn't a fraud is delusional. We don't know, and we probably will never know.

The same goes for the moon landing. I personally believe it was a planned American tactic to show their domination over the Soviet Union. It's hard to believe we went there in the 60s when we haven't been their since. The motives were very real in the era, and now the same agency is claiming that they have now found traces of water on the moon without even stepping foot there? Combined that with the fact that technology has advanced ten fold and the first manned mission to the moon is planned 60 years after the first - almost a whole lifetime... It just doesn't make sense to me. But for me to say I was sure it is a hoax would be ignorant.

America sent six shuttles to the moon, the last of which went in 1972. 12 dudes have walked on its surface. During one such mission, they left a mirror on the surface. With a high-powered laser, you can reflect light off of it.

 

[gristle]

The same goes for the moon landing. I personally believe it was a planned American tactic to show their domination over the Soviet Union. It's hard to believe we went there in the 60s when we haven't been their since. The motives were very real in the era, and now the same agency is claiming that they have now found traces of water on the moon without even stepping foot there? Combined that with the fact that technology has advanced ten fold and the first manned mission to the moon is planned 60 years after the first - almost a whole lifetime... It just doesn't make sense to me. But for me to say I was sure it is a hoax would be ignorant.

The point is, those who claim the existence of a conspiracy are required to prove its existence. If someone claims that an action was carried out by a group of people in order to serve a series of motives, then those things must be shown to exist or there is no conspiracy. What is left is merely an uninformed or unfounded opinion, or a fantasy. It is not about knowing everything, it is about having enough evidence to support your statements.

As for the moon landing being a tactic, what would this mean? There were satellites in orbit by that time in the 1960's that were being used regularly to transmit data, voice and images around the world. People had already been in orbit. The rockets necessary to lift spacecraft and people into orbit and beyond already existed, as did the cryogenic techniques to cool the fuel and the metallurgy to build the engine parts. Semiconductors were in existence for the basic navigation computers, and the physics necessary for space travel was courtesy of Isaac Newton. Just because you personally believe that there was insufficient technology for space flight doesn't actually mean that this is so. You have to seriously entertain the thought that you profoundly underestimate what people were capable of doing during that time. In fact NASA has made available virtually all of the information regarding the spacecraft and their supporting systems.

Regarding water on the moon, you don't need to step onto the moon to know that there is water there (and there is not much of it). Following your logic, do you expect someone to step onto the sun in order to figure out that it largely composed of hydrogen? Water molecules were found in the rocks brought back from the moon (different hydrogen isotope ratios than water found on earth). But of course, you don't believe humans ever brought those rocks back because you believe that people were incapable of such a feat in late 1960. So the other way water is detected on the moon at a distance is by way of spectroscopy. Suffice to say, it's not my task to educate you about these techniques, it's your responsibility to learn how they work - should you wish to refute them in an informed manner. But be warned though, spectroscopy is a well established technique in science.

If you don't understand why people are not regularly going to the moon, you might want to consider the necessity of purpose first, then the cost and the politics associated with that cost. These things have a greater bearing on such activities - much more so than personal incredulity.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

the moon is a hoax. it's all part of the conspiracy. it's a giant technologically advanced hologram that was put up in the 60's by a country that's not technologically advanced enough to go to the moon if it did exist and everyone born before 1960 is in on the conspiracy. history has been edited to include the moon. also, i can prove the moon isn't real because i pointed a laser pen at it and it didn't reflect like graphicmatt suggested. you guys need to be open minded. wake up sheepole!

 

[Peepers]

Just came across this incredible youtube video. Don't know if this has been posted here before. In this video George Bush talks about watching on TV the FIRST plane going into the WTC as he waited to meet the kindergarten students (where he was informed of the SECOND crash as captured in the famous news footage). The problem is there was no LIVE broadcast of the FIRST plane going into the WTC . Only the SECOND plane was captured live on TV. So how was Bush able to witness the FIRST plane hit the WTC? Did they anticipate the attack and arrange for a special closed circuit TV feed for the President?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUXglJU2w6U&feature=related