leopetr
Active Member
The plan is to run triplets on the SRT replacement, so, yes, the LRT vehicles being purchased can be tripled and potentially quadrupled should the need arise.
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saveoursubways (SOS)
- Thread starter kEiThZ
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The plan is to run triplets on the SRT replacement, so, yes, the LRT vehicles being purchased can be tripled and potentially quadrupled should the need arise.
SteveMunro
New Member
The photo a few posts back shows a remnant of the interurban railway system that once blanketed the midwest. The closest we ever had in Toronto was the radial line to Jackson's Point on Lake Simcoe.
There is now a long commentary on the SOS Move Toronto scheme on my website at http://stevemunro.ca/?p=3276.
There is now a long commentary on the SOS Move Toronto scheme on my website at http://stevemunro.ca/?p=3276.
kettal
Banned
And today shall be known as the day SOS got it's biggest shot of publicity.
GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
Open lines for wagers on the SOS response. Will it be....
a) A dismissive hand-wave, as Munro and his best friends Miller and Giambrone are obviously part of a shady conspiracy to force crappy public transit onto unsuspecting Torontonians in a crazy bid to make the northern part of the city more like Europe.
b) The stall tactic. "SOS is working on our response to this and we will publish something in June of 2010 or maybe later."
c) The Dentrobate. A 400-page single-spaced rant from Fresh Start about how buses in the Finch Hydro Corridor will solve everything and, once completed, will cause everyone in Toronto to simultaneously orgasm.
d) all of the above.
a) A dismissive hand-wave, as Munro and his best friends Miller and Giambrone are obviously part of a shady conspiracy to force crappy public transit onto unsuspecting Torontonians in a crazy bid to make the northern part of the city more like Europe.
b) The stall tactic. "SOS is working on our response to this and we will publish something in June of 2010 or maybe later."
c) The Dentrobate. A 400-page single-spaced rant from Fresh Start about how buses in the Finch Hydro Corridor will solve everything and, once completed, will cause everyone in Toronto to simultaneously orgasm.
d) all of the above.
Fresh Start
Banned
No personal attacks or name-calling, thank you. Steve has his opinion, we have our's. We'll see who wins the day. If it's not us then at least we made an effort to affect positive changes in society, to improve our city/region. What have you done lately? Thats right, spam!
kEiThZ
Superstar
I am flattered that Steve Munro considered a handful of guys and a website to be of enough importance to join this forum and then write a 15 page response. He must be worried or something. Heck, I didn't think we'd get that out of him.
Some of his criticisms are valid, and some have come up internally on their own. As the plan evolves and is updated, what we think is valid, we'll work in.
But, by and large, I have maintained from the beginning that SOS isn't directed at Steve Munro or anybody else here (I think even Steve understands this). We're working on reaching out to politicians and on reaching out to citizens (the website was a good start). And that's our target audience. I have neither the time nor the inclination to squander effort on writing back a 15 page response. That takes away time I could spend lobbying somebody who could turn out to be the next mayor of this city or working on residents to get them to support alternatives to Transit City. Some of his criticisms that we've dwelled on internally and that we agree with, we'll incorporate. And some which we don't agree with will be discarded. Consider for example, Steve's criticism of the fact that we lack a life cycle cost analysis. We'll glad do one if we get the numbers. I have yet to see a proper detailed up-to-date LCC analysis for all of Transit City. It's unfair to expect a bunch of citizen activists to pull off something that the TTC's professionals have been less than forthcoming with. Even the work that Metrolinx has done in the BCA is fairly "black box". How about sharing the methodology? How can we discuss what we agree with (wrt costs) and what we don't, when we don't know how they're doing their math? Criticisms like this from Steve, I consider cheap shots. If any of us were working inside the TTC or had the contacts he had, they might be valid. But given that we have to rely on the numbers that are publicly available, I don't think it's fair to hold SOS up to a higher standard than people who do this for a living (or unmarried retired guys with tons of time on their hands).
I must say, I do appreciate the free publicity though! Thanks Steve!
Some of his criticisms are valid, and some have come up internally on their own. As the plan evolves and is updated, what we think is valid, we'll work in.
But, by and large, I have maintained from the beginning that SOS isn't directed at Steve Munro or anybody else here (I think even Steve understands this). We're working on reaching out to politicians and on reaching out to citizens (the website was a good start). And that's our target audience. I have neither the time nor the inclination to squander effort on writing back a 15 page response. That takes away time I could spend lobbying somebody who could turn out to be the next mayor of this city or working on residents to get them to support alternatives to Transit City. Some of his criticisms that we've dwelled on internally and that we agree with, we'll incorporate. And some which we don't agree with will be discarded. Consider for example, Steve's criticism of the fact that we lack a life cycle cost analysis. We'll glad do one if we get the numbers. I have yet to see a proper detailed up-to-date LCC analysis for all of Transit City. It's unfair to expect a bunch of citizen activists to pull off something that the TTC's professionals have been less than forthcoming with. Even the work that Metrolinx has done in the BCA is fairly "black box". How about sharing the methodology? How can we discuss what we agree with (wrt costs) and what we don't, when we don't know how they're doing their math? Criticisms like this from Steve, I consider cheap shots. If any of us were working inside the TTC or had the contacts he had, they might be valid. But given that we have to rely on the numbers that are publicly available, I don't think it's fair to hold SOS up to a higher standard than people who do this for a living (or unmarried retired guys with tons of time on their hands).
I must say, I do appreciate the free publicity though! Thanks Steve!
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Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
Wow...several dozen cheap shots by SOS towards Steve and it is okay but when Steve makes one cheap shot towards SOS you start to complain?
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SteveMunro
New Member
My sources of information are the same as yours -- public documents. I don't get internal TTC papers, and myself have big issues with the way both the TTC and Metrolinx does their financial projections.
Like SOS, my concern is with politicians and the public who must deal with competing visions and claims about the transit system. If SOS considers itself so insignificant that my reply to Move Toronto is excessive, then they must also assume that their proposals won't have an effect. Things like this get around, and there needs to be a response when simplistic "solutions" are presented. Simplistic? That's how a lot of Transit City is portrayed, and the SOS thread (among others) here seems to be dedicated to demolishing that plan (and side-swiping me in the process). A 15-page response won't be read by the candidates, but it will be read by their advisors who might point out the banana peels strewn on their path if they blindly embrace Move Toronto.
Some here have commented that I have the time to dedicate to this as I'm now retired. Yup, ever since April 2009. All those years of transit activism back to the 1970s came out of my own spare time and the tradeoffs I had to make about what was important in my life. I won't make snotty comments about the amount of time students might have on their hands compared to people who have paying jobs as that is a cheap shot. We all care about the city we live in and work, in whatever way we might, to improve it. SOS at least produces a proposal and tries to promote its ideas. Some prefer just to carp from the (often anonymous) comfort of a comment thread.
Like SOS, my concern is with politicians and the public who must deal with competing visions and claims about the transit system. If SOS considers itself so insignificant that my reply to Move Toronto is excessive, then they must also assume that their proposals won't have an effect. Things like this get around, and there needs to be a response when simplistic "solutions" are presented. Simplistic? That's how a lot of Transit City is portrayed, and the SOS thread (among others) here seems to be dedicated to demolishing that plan (and side-swiping me in the process). A 15-page response won't be read by the candidates, but it will be read by their advisors who might point out the banana peels strewn on their path if they blindly embrace Move Toronto.
Some here have commented that I have the time to dedicate to this as I'm now retired. Yup, ever since April 2009. All those years of transit activism back to the 1970s came out of my own spare time and the tradeoffs I had to make about what was important in my life. I won't make snotty comments about the amount of time students might have on their hands compared to people who have paying jobs as that is a cheap shot. We all care about the city we live in and work, in whatever way we might, to improve it. SOS at least produces a proposal and tries to promote its ideas. Some prefer just to carp from the (often anonymous) comfort of a comment thread.
I have read your critique, and I will begin drafting a rebuttle as soon as I have time (likely on Tuesday). It was me who wrote the majority of the report, so I think it's only fair that I defend it. Some of the criticisms you do make are valid, but I think a few of them are just a misunderstanding or you were perhaps expecting a greater level of detail than what SOS is able of technically capable of delivering.
Three things that immediately struck me:
1) The "low estimates" that we gave for the subway cost projections. We did not do detailed work on this, merely we used the estimate of $300 million/km, which while not 100% accurate, is fairly close. By comparison, the Spadina extension is $306 million/km, and the size of the proposed stations on that line could rival the cathedrals of Europe...
2) The idea that GO Transit (particularly with the Georgetown corridor and the Richmond Hill corridor) should be responsible for removing a large portion of the traffic load from the existing subway network. While I see the merits in the electrification of the GO network, I very dubious about its effectiveness at relieving the existing subway network. Particularly the Richmond Hill GO Line, which will offer no connections to the subway or LRT network inside of Toronto except at Leslie (Oriole), and Union. This may work as a substitute for those who are originating from Richmond Hill and going to the CBD (the crowd who currently boards at Finch and rides the whole way down), but does very little for anyone inside of Toronto, other than freeing up a couple of seats on the subway which, if Transit City does what it's supposed to do, will be filled up again by someone transferring from an LRT onto the subway.
This whole thing is assuming that a) frequencies on GO can reach the point where it is actually convenient for people to transfer from the subway to GO for an alternative route downtown (particularly with the Georgetown corridor transfer at Bloor), and b) that fare integration is actually implemented so that it doesn't make it more expensive for people to choose that alternative route. Given the TTC's reluctance to accept new forms of payment technology, I am skeptical that that will be done properly.
If both of those conditions materialize, then yes, it would work. But that is a very thin line to walk, and if either of those do not materialize, higher numbers of riders are going to be using the same size subway network they are today. The difference between success and a complete boondoggle with this scenario is a little bit too close together for my liking.
3) That the BRT/BRT Light lines won't provide any additional capacity. My point is: they don't have to. The bus system today is oriented around taking people from their home or business to the closest subway station. The main issue today is the distance which people have to travel in order to reach that subway station. People slowly pile on along the entire length of the route, and once the bus reaches the subway, nearly all, if not all, of the passengers exit the bus onto the subway. If there are more options for a subway transfer, there is a higher likelihood that the number of passengers that will be on the bus for the long haul will decrease. In essence, more subway options will create a higher turnover rate on the bus route, negating a lot of the need for additional capacity on these routes.
Overall, I find many of the points you made in your critique to be valid, and I have rebuttled a few here in hopes of opening some CIVIL dialogue (looking at people on both sides of the issue when I say civil), in hopes of making a more sound plan, even if it does come with a few compromises. I am not opposed to making changes, as long as those changes are informed and rational.
CharmAlarm
Active Member
Thank you Steve for consistently providing well-informed and rational comments to an otherwise emotional topic.
GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
Isn't this attitude akin to saying outright that, yes, there is a far cheaper and less disruptive solution but it will require an organizational shift so let's spend billions of dollars instead? Is that really fiscally responsible?
nfitz
Superstar
Wow, the mistruths here just amaze me. As you can clearly see, Steve has been a member here for as long, and even longer, than many of the SOS members!
If SOS's relationship with the truth is so questionable on such immaterial issues, how can we trust anything they write technically?
kEiThZ
Superstar
Ah. More criticisms from the peanut gallery. When was the last time you actually got together with like minded citizens to campaign for a cause? Or is the best your can do, is pound a few keys while lazing on your couch?
kEiThZ
Superstar
Fair enough. We've worked with what limited time we've had, with whatever documents we've had. You and we both know that there's a lot of missing gaps here. I don't think it's fair to fault us for not doing something Metrolinx could not do. If you have info on what it costs to operate each TC line aside from the BCAs, we'd love to look at it. I have only seen ops costings estimates in Metrolinx's BCA (I dunno if Andrew's got something different, that's the best I've got). We left this portion for a later stage because the whole point of our first phase was to show the opportunity cost of the $12-$15 billion being spent on Transit City. As costing information emerges we'll definitely focus on this issue.
And thus far nobody has presented a cohesive counter-point to Transit City for any of the said advisors to read. We didn't think it was fair to just critique TC and not present an alternative. That's what we're doing. You, of course, are free to nip at our heels and keep us in check. It helps us find faults and make our products better. And we actually do appreciate the feedback. We've been quite open about this from the start. We would not have allowed comments on the website, if we didn't believe in getting feedback (both good and bad).
I'll apologize for my past behaviour. I'll admit to letting some of the trolls on here get the better of me sometime and perhaps for you being unfairly targetted in return. Going back on here, you can see that our opponents, often your backers are quite vocal in their distaste for our efforts and seem to hold your opinions as gospel. That does force us on occassion to counter some of the argument you make. I'll pledge to be more civil here on in despite the trolls.
As for us being students...I don't think any of the major contributors (other than Andrew) are students actually. We're all working folk, which is why we are deeply concerned about Transit City and its impacts on this city....because it impacts us, immediately.
Jimbits
New Member
Wow. nfitz correctly points out a fact that Steve Munro has been a member since at least August of 2008, and you decide to attack nfitz for simply doing so? Yes, if people can't be correct on certain facts, others will doubt what they have to say. It's used well in courts. What the hell does getting together with people have to do with anything? Or lazing on couches?
Jeez, I feel sick. This will be my first and last time on this thread.
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