saveoursubways (SOS)

[nfitz]

In an ideal world, I wouldn't disagree with you. If the SRT wasn't about to crap out on us, I would leave it until later on. If Sheppard wasn't about to be turned into a huge mistake, I would leave it until further on. In an ideal world, the DRL and Eglinton would be built at the same time, opening around the same time. These two lines alone would give a significant network improvement.

I'm sure if we really put our mind to it, we could keep the SRT going for another 10-15 years. All we have to do is buy Vancouver some Mark IIs, and get some of their Mark Is. They have 36 Mark I cars from the 1990s that could replace our 28 cars, giving us 8 train-sets available for peak instead of 6; this would increase frequency from 210 seconds to 158 seconds and capacity by 33%. That and some additional maintenance to the system should work for a while.

I think the "we have to replace it now because it is falling to pieces" is a bit of a red herring.

 

[kEiThZ]

^ I believe the Mk IIs won't fit our stations, if I am not mistaken. We could just buy up Mk Is and keep the thing in operation while we build the subway. This way there's no service disruption.

 

[nfitz]

^ I believe the Mk IIs won't fit our stations, if I am not mistaken.

No they won't ... which is why in the post above I said we should get 36 1990s Mark Is from Vancouver (buying them Mark IIs). I don't believe buying new Mark Is is an option.

 

[GraphicMatt]

The SRT is a mistake that should be killed, not kept alive through various means. Toronto can't continue along with transit technology that doesn't work well in the winter.

 

[nfitz]

The SRT is a mistake that should be killed, not kept alive through various means. Toronto can't continue along with transit technology that doesn't work well in the winter.

I don't disagree (though I haven't heard any complaints this winter!! ).

But given we've been living with it a quarter-century now, I don't think there's any reason it can't last another 15-years or so if the $ to replace it can be better spent on another project.

 

[SteveMunro]

Aside from the age of the Mark I cars in Vancouver, when Toronto asked about buying them, Van said "sure, just buy us replacement sets of Mark IIs". This would have meant the TTC buying old Vancouver cars at the price of brand new ones just to keep the SRT alive for a while longer.

Saying let's just buy the Vancouver cars and actually getting them is not as simple or cheap as it seems.

I agree that perpetuating this line is a mistake, but not on the option that would replace it. Such is the nature of our debate.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

There's more wrong with the RT than just the vehicles. Scarborough Centre's platform has always been dangerously narrow, for one thing. I think the whole roof needs to be replaced, too. Then there's the chaotic transfers, where you have escalators in the worst possible places...positioning them at random would have resulted in better people flows. You don't put band-aids on a gangrenous wound...you amputate.

 

[nfitz]

Aside from the age of the Mark I cars in Vancouver, when Toronto asked about buying them, Van said "sure, just buy us replacement sets of Mark IIs".

That's exactly what I'd expect it would cost. On one level, it's not a great deal. But in the bigger picture, it's a heck of a lot cheaper than any of the alternatives.

As for platform narrowness ... is one really going to suggest that the Scarborough Centre platform is narrow than the much more dangerous Yonge platform at Bloor?

 

[Fresh Start]

Your cost estimate doesn't include underground stations, most usually one of if not the most expensive part of an underground system. Plus 'natural open air venting through the ceiling' doesn't work with a bored tunnel. Not saying that BRT is bad for every application, but it would be stupid to use on Eglinton. There is reason that Seattle with a bus tunnel spent a lot of money to convert it to an LRT tunnel.

I never said to use BRT in every application, feel free to find evidence of me saying that. You never heard me say that Eglinton should be built as a BRT, although a few years back GO Transit was in serious talks to build a BRT tunnel underneath it in much the same fashion as the present-day ECLRT ROW. I guess that makes them the stupid ones, not me. The only reason I brought up a BRT tunnel at all was in regards to the 2 kilometre stretch of Jane Street from the rail corridor to Hwy 400 where the roadway width at-grade is only 27 metres. Of course this section of Jane doesn't necessarily need to be in a ture ROW as my posting of that Youtube video demonstrates on Page 87. Buses have the manuverability to enter and exit a road-median busway with relative ease. So long as signal priority is given to Jane BRT vehicles the situation this clear this brief area of Jane should not be an issue. Silly me for thinking people would actually take the time to read what I have posted thoroughly instead of choosing to falsify and twist my statements to cast me in whatever negative light they choose to. No I'm not the "BRT in lieu of LRT everywhere" advocate and I do not appreciate the level of personal attacks and slander I am enduring for trying to educate forumers on a little talked about transportation technology mode here on Urbantoronto. I'm one of the first people SOS approached to join them cause they knew of my passion for see more true rapid transit solutions built in his city. I want nothing more than to see full completed subways along Sheppard, Eglinton, DRL and B-D to Sherway and SCC. I just realize that you cannot propose multibillion dollar subway projects at the same time as multibillion dollar LRT projects. Where's the money to come from for all of it? The upgradability of BRT to LRT ROWs in the future is also a highly understated fact here. See that's my point, many here are just ignorant to what BRT can offer to Torontonians in general and any attempts to inform you on it always gets slammed down. Now I can actually emphaphize with Steve Munro, for I too am wondering why I ought to tolerate all these personal attacks being made against me on this site? To the two insolent trolls whom have mistaken me for someone(s) else, prove it, otherwise STFU!

 

[gweed123]

There's more wrong with the RT than just the vehicles. Scarborough Centre's platform has always been dangerously narrow, for one thing. I think the whole roof needs to be replaced, too. Then there's the chaotic transfers, where you have escalators in the worst possible places...positioning them at random would have resulted in better people flows. You don't put band-aids on a gangrenous wound...you amputate.

One of the advanatges of the SOS plan is that the SRT can be kept in operation even when the subway is being built, because they use two completely different alignments. The Transit City plan uses the current SRT ROW, which would require it to be shut down for likely a couple years while the construction takes place. And if this construction gets in any way delayed, we will have no rapid transit connection to any of the Scarborough sites for the 2015 Games.

The B-D platform at Kennedy already runs pretty much E-W, so construction can continue there without seriously disrupting passenger flow. The only place it could potentially be an issue is at STC, and there's no reason why the subway station needs to be directly beneath where the current STC station is. There's only a giant sea of parking there to rip up and build underneath.

 

[nfitz]

Two years ... that number certainly has been knocked around ... but does it seem reasonable to you to uprade the SRT for LRT?

 

[gweed123]

Two years ... that number certainly has been knocked around ... but does it seem reasonable to you to uprade the SRT for LRT?

Wouldn't that technically be a downgrade?

 

[Dan416]

I'm sure nfitz just misspoke.

Anyway I can see no justification for allowing the SRT to continue. People can complain all they want about SOS mythically being about only subways to Scarborough, but seeing as Scarborough is the part of Toronto most shafted by transit, I think that's fair. I would love for someone to demonstrate how an Urban Growth Centre doesn't need any subway connection even though it's only two stops away from one. It's just mind-bogglingly obvious to me. Sheppard to STC isn't as important, clearly, but again, our hands are forced on this issue by the threat of the SELRT blockading the Sheppard Subway from reaching its full potential. I mean, shouldn't we be trying to, I dunno, GROW ridership on Sheppard instead of stunting it?

This is why expanding all the lines is so important and central to SOS's mission statement. Our subway terminii haven't moved in 20-30 years, yet Toronto's population growth has all been closer to the terminii than the centre. But expanding outward isn't the only answer. Strengthening the core subway network is extremely important as well, which is why the DRL is an integral part of SOS's plan.

 

[nfitz]

Wouldn't that technically be a downgrade?

So that it can run year round, rather than when there is just no snow? And with a capacity increase? And more convenient access to the subway. A downgrade ... ha, ha ha ...

But that's not the point of the question is it. Do you really think it's 2 years of work?

 

[gweed123]

So that it can run year round, rather than when there is just no snow? And with a capacity increase? And more convenient access to the subway. A downgrade ... ha, ha ha ...

But that's not the point of the question is it. Do you really think it's 2 years of work?

I'm just saying, strictly speaking, ICTS to LRT is a downgrade. Yes, the current SRT does have some issues, but just based on the definitions of the two technologies, it's a downgrade.

And I think it's two years of work at minimum. If they can somehow manage to build sections of it while the SRT is still in operation, it could cut down the time. Buy by and large I would guess around 3 years. 1 to remove the existing structure and stations, and 2 years to build the new stations and track. And don't forget the added operating (and likely capital) costs of building a parallel express bus or BRT Light service to run while the SRT is being replaced. Try selling that one to Scarborough residents:

"Ok, so we're going to rip down the SRT, and while the new service is being built along the same route, on which 4 of the 6 stations are barely used, going to replace the service with a bus that will be crowded at most times of the day because we're not going to devote enough resources to the replacement to actually make it useable. Then we're going to spend hundreds of millions of dollars building a new service that will only be marginally more effective, while still making you transfer at Kennedy even when it's done. And then we're going to extend the LRT to Malvern where it can meet another LRT in Malvern. Oh, and that first LRT, well it'll pass kinda close to UTSC, but not close enough to be of any real use to one of the largest trip generators in Scarborough. Everybody ok with that? No? Ok good, let's start the project."