saveoursubways (SOS)

[Fresh Start]

What about the DRL? My pecking order is:
1) DRL East
2) B-D extensions
3) Eglinton Central and West
4) Yonge and Spadina extensions
5) Sheppard East
6) DRL West
7) Eglinton East
8) Sheppard West

Spadina extension is a done deal, it shouldn't factor into the plan. I'd prioritize a complete DRL and Eglinton from Pearson to Don Mills as #1 and #2 top priorities. Followed by piecemeal extensions of Bloor-Danforth, Yonge and Sheppard in that order to SCC, Steeles-Centrepoint and Agincourt respectively.

 

[Fresh Start]

This whole thing is kind of falling apart, guys. What happened to keeping it simple? Sheppard Subway to STC is the only immediate goal you have that's remotely relevant in the short-term.

Well it's a brainstorming session involving many people with many different ideas of how to fix the system and under a narrow deadline with which to halt SELRT ROW construction in its tracks, at that. What did you expect?

 

[Dan416]

We can't make a pecking order based on what we perceive to be the greatest need (e.g. DRL). We have to stop the Sheppard East LRT and the SRT extension/replacement with LRT first and foremost. Toronto can't afford such expensive mistakes right now. Not AGAIN!

 

[Second_in_pie]

We can't make a pecking order based on what we perceive to be the greatest need (e.g. DRL). We have to stop the Sheppard East LRT and the SRT extension/replacement with LRT first and foremost. Toronto can't afford such expensive mistakes right now. Not AGAIN!

I agree. Building the SELRT and refurbishing the SRT would be disastrous for years for little gain. Sheppard needs to be cancelled as quickly as possible before construction starts, and the B-D extension needs to get built quickly not only so the SRT refurbishment doesn't occur, but also because there's a timeframe on the RT's lifespan, after which it will probably be out of commission.

I might also add Eglinton to that list, but it doesn't sound like Construction is planned to start very quickly. If it is, it'll be for the underground part. We should be pushing for Eglinton to be built as a subway form Jane-Don Mills, but it's not as urgent. It'd be terrible if Sheppard and the B-D extensions were built but Eglinton was forgotten about though, so I think that should be a relatively important part of the campaign, also keeping in line with the more subways idea.

The DRL should be mentioned, but I think the City is already looking at that. One thing I might consider rather important is the avenue up Don Mills to Sheppard/Finch that could easily support a DRL extension northward. If you could put that on the City's radar, we might save a bit on a Don Mills LRT that'll be redundant with a Don Mills subway. If you want to mention that, be sure to include the cost-saving techniques that could happen on Don Mills by raising the subway along the centre of the street, where there's plenty of room to run it.

 

[Dan416]

I agree. Building the SELRT and refurbishing the SRT would be disastrous for years for little gain. Sheppard needs to be cancelled as quickly as possible before construction starts, and the B-D extension needs to get built quickly not only so the SRT refurbishment doesn't occur, but also because there's a timeframe on the RT's lifespan, after which it will probably be out of commission.

I might also add Eglinton to that list, but it doesn't sound like Construction is planned to start very quickly. If it is, it'll be for the underground part. We should be pushing for Eglinton to be built as a subway form Jane-Don Mills, but it's not as urgent. It'd be terrible if Sheppard and the B-D extensions were built but Eglinton was forgotten about though, so I think that should be a relatively important part of the campaign, also keeping in line with the more subways idea.

The DRL should be mentioned, but I think the City is already looking at that. One thing I might consider rather important is the avenue up Don Mills to Sheppard/Finch that could easily support a DRL extension northward. If you could put that on the City's radar, we might save a bit on a Don Mills LRT that'll be redundant with a Don Mills subway. If you want to mention that, be sure to include the cost-saving techniques that could happen on Don Mills by raising the subway along the centre of the street, where there's plenty of room to run it.

The Don Mills LRT isn't very far along. Certainly having the DRL replace it should be included in the map. But the mistakes in Scarborough will be ones that will have to be endured for many more years to come if we don't do something about it. It's bad enough Scarborough got shafted with the SRT for so many years. Now to want to replace it with something other than a subway is very sad. If the Sheppard Stubway is any indication, if it's converted to subway ridership will grow steadily as time goes by (and not stagnate like the SRT has).

 

[kEiThZ]

Let's get the maps done. Next we need good measurements of each segment so that we can do some rough costings.

 

[Fresh Start]

Fair enough ... I was just trying to connect the Jane RT to the subway; and that should work.

There'd be some overlap ... but nothing on the scale of building 2 subways to SRT!

No it won't work. Not from a turning radius perspective. And the spacing's too close. And it's smack in the middle of a park. Squirrels don't ride transit. And Jane riders are in no way inconvenienced by such a minor detour in which case they'd still have to transfer between buses for through along Jane.

I wouldn't think of the subway extensions as composites but rather wholes. It is quite possible that SCC station could be three-tracked on the same level whereby some train trips can turn back the direction from which they came while others do a full routing from Kipling (or beyond) to Sheppard-Yonge.

Why do you have the need to start insulting people by making personal attacks! I see absolutely no need for that kind of thing, and I think such needless language only will only escalate.

Sorry, geez. I thought I had used the polite form of the acronym KISS. Regardless my point was that there is simply no need for the overlap. How many people along Don Mills actually desire to go to St Clair Stn or Castle Frank. Plus it costs a lot of money the gov't simply doesn't have. Can you imagine how expensive it'll be to have the one subway cross the DVP alone?

And Eglinton/Don Mills? That's kind of overkill isn't it? It's only 400 metres from Eglinton to St. Dennis ... essentially you've got one stop at the Ontario Science Centre, and a second stop at the north end of the parking lot. In addition to get from Thorncliffe Park East to Overlea/Gateway (only an 800-metre distance) you have to have a Don River crossing. Wouldn't the TTC design from the 1970s make more sense, with a single Don Valley crossing from the Donlands/O'Connor area to the Overlea/Gateway area. Thornecliffe park is neglected, but it would still have very good bus service to the subway ... or LRT/BRT if the Don Mills RT continued.

What I meant was that the "Eglinton" stop would be at St Dennis and Don Mills (northern exit Rochefort Dr). That's not extremely south of Eglinton where there is no existing density by contrast, only parking lots. The DRL should at least target Thorncliffe Park en route, but following the street grid religiously may be unnecessary. For instance, a station at Don Mills/Overlea could be expendable, having the subway cross at a diagonal through the north end of TCP with the next stop occuring right beneath the Science Ctr grounds.

The problem with putting a lot of stops together is that though you serve the area well, you create problems in the future when the subway extends further ... presumably it will be to Markham by 2100 or so. So by some short extensions of LRT/BRT, you can overlap a bit, and provide local service. I agree though that if you really put that many subway stations in, that there is no point extending LRT service.

Do you really think a Don Mills subway would ever reach Markham though, even by 2100? Realistically stops beyond OSC should be Barber Greene, Donway, Graydon Hall (York Mills) and Fairview. If we're lucky we could squeeze in an extension adjacent the 404 to Seneca College.

And this is where I think a subways-only plan falls short. I don't see that building LRT precludes the later construction of subway ... if anything it could make the future construction more efficient, as it would need less stations (imagine extending Sheppard subway in the future with stops only at Victoria Park, Agincourt, and Scarborough Centre ...).

Two problems with that though. One, LRT is cost-prohibitive. No way should it be costing $1.030 billion for a mere 15 kms of LRT ROW through mixed traffic. For that money we could extend the subway to Warden and it'd attract more riders, in awe of the fact they can get from end-point to end-point within 12 minutes. Two, you'd be creating unnecessary backtracking if someone stop via the subway is passed. The only overlapping the Sheppard corridor needs is a frequently scheduled 85 bus. 1750pphpd is not the realm for even full-scale BRT operation.

 

[gweed123]

^^ Of course, the DRL would be among the top, if not at the top of projects. I just assumed it'd receive funding separate from TC/TYSSE.

You're probably right, but if we can squeeze it into the $15 billion TC budget, it will only make it more attractive to be built.

And while I see the urgency of cancelling the SELRT before construction starts, I really don't see the urgency on starting work on the subway. The B-D extension, coupled with a BRT placed along Sheppard (for a fraction of the cost), will likely be recieved just as well as the SRT replacement/SELRT, especially when you promise subway within 15 years. Delaying the Sheppard East subway could easily free up funds for Eglinton West, bringing a much needed balance to the plan.

Yes, Scarborough has been shafted in the past, but a subway extension and 4 BRTs is pretty good for the short-term, especially when 1 of those BRTs is slated to become a subway.

 

[kEiThZ]

I am wondering if your Hwy 27 BRT is too regionally focused for our plan. I have been giving it some thought. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it more like Ottawa's Transitway (outside the core). I dunno if that's what's needed in the west end at this stage. How do we incorporate bus travel along a Hwy 27 and have them pick up people at regular stop intervals like a regular TTC service?

It would be similar to Ottawa's service. However recall that BRT through the core routes along local streets same as regular buses do. Hwy 27 BRT would be very much the same. Local service along Gracedale loop (Albion-Islington-Finch) and along Lakeshore loop (Brown's Line-Lakeshore-Islington-Queensway). The express limited stop segment of the ROW would have stations similar to those of the Spadina Line through the median of the Allen Exwy. I propose 3-4 stops for this part (depending on whether Rathburn warrants a stop). The other 3 would have bus bays extending off the bridge crossing of an insecting corridor (Burnhamthrope, Dixon) whereby local buses can drop-off pick passengers within a fare-paid area with all-door boarding for minimal leftover times. Dundas Stn would be incorporated into the basement level of Cloverdale Mall with automatic entrances out to street level. Apart from these stops though, it'd all be on-street local accessibilty.

That said, I don't really get where the regional criticism comes from. It'd be a TTC only route (although if agreements can be arranged MT vehicles could also let off passengers at the BRT stations that'd feed into the subway). However, I think that utilizing Brown's Ln-Hwy 427-Hwy 27 is an unique opportunity that we can't afford to miss out on.

Look at this objectively. Like a lot of forumers have been pointing out, our planning thus far is very east-centric. Even RHC extension is largely for the benefit of Markhamites from the east end. What this does is create a seamless way to get from the Lakeshore to Finch in relatively little time with speeds of up to 60-80kmph achievable. The number of crowd-drawing attractions right off the corridor is another plus. Woodbine and Humber College alone will attract people. This is also a rapid means to link B-D to the future Eglinton Line. And commuters coming from Malton and Brampton would also flock to this service more so than say commuting a further 2kms in towards Kipling or Islington.

This is a PM conversation with Fresh Start (hope you don't mind) about his Hwy 27 BRT idea. I think there's some merit to it. But I am still left wondering if it's not local enough? Maybe a good Phase 2 project?

The reservations I have about it are that every other BRT we have on an artery provides local service first and some regional service (in that it usually feeds a subway). In this case, there's nothing much on Hwy 27 itself but it allows for very rapid transit for a neighbourhood to the subway. And can be built cheaply.

The proposal leaves me torn. I don't know how well the TTC would handle something like this. They aren't OC Transpo and aren't used to running Ottawa style Express routes if you will. On the other hand, if they succeeded it would be a huge boost in transit for west-enders with very little cost. I'll leave it up to the rest of the group to decide if we should trade Kipling or Islington for this.

 

[Rainforest]

And while I see the urgency of cancelling the SELRT before construction starts, I really don't see the urgency on starting work on the subway. The B-D extension, coupled with a BRT placed along Sheppard (for a fraction of the cost), will likely be recieved just as well as the SRT replacement/SELRT, especially when you promise subway within 15 years. Delaying the Sheppard East subway could easily free up funds for Eglinton West, bringing a much needed balance to the plan.

Interesting, and not unreasonable. However, what would you do with the 404 crossing to Don Mills subway station? Have the buses run in mixed traffic as they do today? Or, build a BRT tunnel? (that would cost quite a bit ...)

 

[nfitz]

Well you could build the next phase of Sheppard East to Victoria Park ...

 

[kEiThZ]

I would reject anything short of a full build out of the Sheppard Subway. I have long considered the merits of a partial extension (to Agincourt for example). However, that would demolish some of our very own arguments, cause unnecessary expenditures (new busways, future station redesigns, etc.) and do nothing to advance the cause of more effective regional travel.

Sheppard East is more vital to regional travel than any other transit line on the books for the 416. There is no other line that will connect two urban growth centres. That reason alone greatly establishes the case for building the line in its entirety.

 

[Second_in_pie]

You're probably right, but if we can squeeze it into the $15 billion TC budget, it will only make it more attractive to be built.

Perhaps, but I think it's pretty much 100% assured going to be built now. Certainly we should include it in the subway network maps, as well as promote extension north of Eglinton (as well as building it to Eglinton from the start.) So I guess it can be a goal of the project/group, but not necessarily something we should be pressing for. However, we should be encouraging Metrolinx/TTC to look at an eventual extension northward to Finch over a 25 year timespan (Bloor, Eglinton, Lawrence, Sheppard, Finch.)

And while I see the urgency of cancelling the SELRT before construction starts, I really don't see the urgency on starting work on the subway.

I wouldn't call it urgent like the DRL, Eglinton or B-D extensions are urgent, but it should be built. Nothing's at capacity, but a finished Yonge-STC Sheppard Subway would be great for North York and Scarborough, further encouraging densification along the corridor, and opening up a slew of new transit trips.

Delaying the Sheppard East subway could easily free up funds for Eglinton West, bringing a much needed balance to the plan.

Sheppard will likely come almost cost-neutral (maybe being $200 or $300 million more) with the current LRT, and Eglinton will be similar. For Eglinton, the central section can obviously be built with current funding, as that section's supposed to be tunneled anyways. The westward extension might require more money than what's funded for the LRT currently, but probably not by a huge amount.

This is a PM conversation with Fresh Start (hope you don't mind) about his Hwy 27 BRT idea. I think there's some merit to it. But I am still left wondering if it's not local enough? Maybe a good Phase 2 project?

The reservations I have about it are that every other BRT we have on an artery provides local service first and some regional service (in that it usually feeds a subway). In this case, there's nothing much on Hwy 27 itself but it allows for very rapid transit for a neighbourhood to the subway. And can be built cheaply.

The proposal leaves me torn. I don't know how well the TTC would handle something like this. They aren't OC Transpo and aren't used to running Ottawa style Express routes if you will. On the other hand, if they succeeded it would be a huge boost in transit for west-enders with very little cost. I'll leave it up to the rest of the group to decide if we should trade Kipling or Islington for this.

Actually, I really think there's a lot of merit to this. In fact, I'm wondering if such a corridor might warrant further RT, like a limited stop subway.

It definitely has a lot of strength as a N/S RT service through Etobicoke and Mississauga, connecting with important nodes like Sherway Gardens and the B-D, Lakeshore Go, Eglinton and Pearson, Woodbine and maybe even Finch and Humber College. I have absolutely no idea how much ridership that kind of line could justify, but I think the Pearson-Sherway section at least has huge potential. Either a BRT or Subway along the 427 would be pretty easy to do, and it could potentially suck up a bunch of riders.

I'd love to see a study into this actually. It certainly competes with Kipling/Islingon as a RT route, because of the nodes and density that it hits, as well as just the ease of building along the route. I support this BRT, but I'm wondering if the nature of the route might make more sense for full-blown subway/raised rail.

 

[doady]

Sheppard East is more vital to regional travel than any other transit line on the books for the 416. There is no other line that will connect two urban growth centres. That reason alone greatly establishes the case for building the line in its entirety.

Well, there is the Bloor-Danforth extension to SCC as well, which would give SCC a connection downtown Toronto. SCC is the only urban growth centre in Toronto not connected to another by rapid transit...

But I think the Sheppard corridor alone is already a good enough reason to finish the Sheppard subway. The fact that it would connect NYCC and SCC is just a bonus. And of course, there is a fact that part of the Sheppard subway already been built...

 

[gweed123]

But I think the Sheppard corridor alone is already a good enough reason to finish the Sheppard subway. The fact that it would connect NYCC and SCC is just a bonus. And of course, there is a fact that part of the Sheppard subway already been built...

Many of the corridors listed in the plan have "good reason" to be built. I'm just looking at it from a politically palitable perspective. The plan we have is quite east centric, with the 2 major subway extensions in the west not slated until later in the plan. I just fear that this imbalance may be a reason for rejection by city officials.

Not factoring several of the extensions into the cost of the plan (Spadina, Yonge, and the DRL, as they are all being funded independent of TC), may actually leave us able to fund Eglinton West as well as Sheppard East.

The central portion of Eglinton will be cost-neutral to TC when the money for the at-grade portion from the east section is used. The funds for the SRT replacement will fund a substantial part of the eastern B-D extension (and the money from the removal of the Malvern LRT can top that up to be cost-neutral). The Sheppard East LRT will fund a large part of the Sheppard subway, maybe half of it. The removal of the WWLRT could fund the other half. Jane is being reduced to a BRT, so that is part of the Eglinton West extension paid for. Finch West LRT is funding the entire Finch BRT, so that is cost-neutral on it's own.

So basically it all boils down to how we crunch the numbers, and how "lavish" of a subway we build. 2 less lavish stations ($150 million vs $300 million) funds almost an extra km of subway. We'll wait and see until someone has crunched the numbers (or a couple people, then we can compare, I posted the lengths in a pdf file in this thread earlier), so we can see exactly where the money is coming from, and where it's going to. Once that happens, we can debate the tough decisions of what to cut in order to make it fit.