King of Kensington
Senior Member
Doug Ford falsely claimed that there were more libraries than Tim Horton's in his ward. Even if were true - why is that bad?
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Save Our Libraries!
- Thread starter Irishmonk
- Start date
Bogtrotter
Senior Member
You can't eat a book. Besides, they attract pinkos and them intellekchul types. 
jn_12
Senior Member
So you're suggesting that people should obtain books through illegal means if they can't afford to purchase books themselves? Are you serious? Haven't you seen the recent issues in the US that have come up over intellectual property? The future of piracy prevention is going to make it something no one will want to be involved with. Also, simply the fact that you would suggest that people steal to meet their needs is absolutely mindboggling in what is one of the richest cities in one of the richest countries in the world. It's like saying we shouldn't have food banks because people could steal food from supermarket sidewalk displays.
You do also realize that Toronto has the highest child poverty rates in the province, right? And that 1 in 4 people and 1 in 5 famiilies in the city live in poverty? And that these numbers consist particularly of newcomers to the city, racialized groups, Aboriginal people, single-mother families and residents with disabilities? Oh and then there's the increasing number of not just seniors, but seniors who are slipping into poverty themselves (over 1 in 5). These are all people who can't afford tablets or Kindles and they won't be catching up anytime soon if trends over the last 20 years (as in, the poor are getting poorer) continue. Also, let's say they can afford a Kindle or whatever, the TPL loans e-books.
The idea that technology will eventually prevail only leaves those who can't afford it or can't use it in the dust. Is that the type of society we want? Certainly not.
Oh and PS. I'm a recent Masters Grad too, and found the TPL system to be an invaluable resource for my degree, particularly since as a student I couldn't (and still can't) afford a cell phone, never mind something like an e-reader.
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King of Kensington
Senior Member
Well said.
G
gabe
Guest
Been to a library lately? During the school year the library near me is packed with school kids of all ages, the kids are either doing research or getting books. eReaders aren't going to replace books or libraries anytime soon.
Irishmonk
Senior Member
The deficit is largely a creation of Ford's (Miller left us a surplus) and he did promise "No service cuts" when he was campaigning. The proper time to have a debate on the future of our libraries would have been during the campaign. If Rob had been been mouthing his brother's sentiments on the hustings, I suspect his supporters would have been a little less enthusiastic.
(And why the f**k is Doug Ford now the municipal mouthpiece for everything that goes on in this city? He is not the goddamn mayor and he does not speak for the whole city! Why should he be requesting a meeting with Margaret Atwood when she lives in bloody Yorkville? Why should Atwood even be mentioned in the same sentence as the Rookie Councillor from Etobicoke? Has this town turned into a friggin' kleptocracy already?)
Toronto is doing relatively well, economically, and there is money to fund a library system (which is one of the world's best btw.) I don't feel like trotting out all the ways a library system enriches a community--I'm sure you could research that on your iPad, or Smartphone (and if the network goes down, you can always use your nearest library.)
Regarding the 2020 Olympics, so you wouldn't mind siphoning off hundred of millions of tax dollars for a 2 week sporting contest that enriches global corporations, broadcasters and IOC members, and turns its host cities into armed camps--but when it comes to low income families with kids, or students, or anyone, frankly, who can benefit from decent library services, it's "Let them eat cake!".
I suppose you would have no problem with taxpayers being on the hook for Ford's other big priority, a world class NFL stadium--with convenient monorail access.
Anyhoo, this is one of those circular arguments that convinces neither side. Either people value libraries (and the "soft" benefits they bring) or they don't. I'm going to try to make it the big Thursday meeting and I encourage others to as well.
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Here's a link to a petition: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/save-torontos-public-libraries/
sixrings
Senior Member
I knew there was going to be no way anyone would believe on this thread that I was anti FORD based on the fact that this one service I was willing to have the conversation with about cutting. EVERYTHING is not essental. Obviously we all have different ideas of whats essential. For myself it would be health care, and public transit. Actually Id give back half the police force to have more recreation centres and libraries but the likelyhood of that happening is zero... All Im saying is that books will eventually be found on ebooks. I also am suggesting that in the future everyone will have one. Its no different then how everyone owns a TV. The few people I know who dont own a TV, dont own one because they want to get out more, not because they cant afford one. Cable is a completely different matter. Anyways the more ebooks sold the more buyers of books, the cheaper the digital copies become.
As for the 2020 olympic games, the ONLY reason I would support them is because our infrastructure is way behind where it needs to be public transit wise. Also the olympics is the one event that will get the rest of canada, who generally hates and is jealous of toronto, to give us some damn money. If we were any other city in the country I would not suggest a olympic bid. But being Toronto its the perfect way to get money into our city, even if it costs Torontos own residents extra money.
I agree irishmonk, circular argument. Its not that I havent found libraries useful in the past. I am just questioning their usefulness in the future.
As for the 2020 olympic games, the ONLY reason I would support them is because our infrastructure is way behind where it needs to be public transit wise. Also the olympics is the one event that will get the rest of canada, who generally hates and is jealous of toronto, to give us some damn money. If we were any other city in the country I would not suggest a olympic bid. But being Toronto its the perfect way to get money into our city, even if it costs Torontos own residents extra money.
I agree irishmonk, circular argument. Its not that I havent found libraries useful in the past. I am just questioning their usefulness in the future.
Electrify
Senior Member
I'll admit I haven't researched this in great detail, but if done right I could support optimizing the locations of libraries. I believe there are 3 libraries in Doug Ford's riding, so instead of having 3 small libraries, have 1 large library in a central location in the neighbourhood.
Better example, let's say in another part of the city there are 9 small libraries. Merge some so you have 2 large libraries while maintaining 3 small libraries.
Better example, let's say in another part of the city there are 9 small libraries. Merge some so you have 2 large libraries while maintaining 3 small libraries.
Irishmonk
Senior Member
Fair enough. I can't say I haven't had similar notions as many of my friends--including some old school writers--are reading everything on e-books. It's a valid arguement, but the case hasn't been made yet for any kind irreversible decision on scrapping or even downscaling libraries. And such decisions should be arrived at after a thorough public airing that involves all interested people, not a corrupt little cabal of political hacks.
abcde
New Member
While e-books are great and everything, I do not see them replacing hardcopy books anytime soon. It's a completely different experience reading a REAL book, not to mention the headache you get when using an e-reader for an extended period of time. Also, the amount of energy expended through charging and producing the e-readers is far more than that used by a bunch of books in a library that are SHARED amongst many people.
Sixrings, if you are completing a master's at U of T, you would know that it is a habit for many students to print their work and edit it on paper before submission. Things just look differently on paper than they do on a screen.
Lastly, our libraries should not even be considered as a place to find savings. They are after all, as many here have mentioned, much more than just a collection of books.
Sixrings, if you are completing a master's at U of T, you would know that it is a habit for many students to print their work and edit it on paper before submission. Things just look differently on paper than they do on a screen.
Lastly, our libraries should not even be considered as a place to find savings. They are after all, as many here have mentioned, much more than just a collection of books.
junctionist
Senior Member
It's naive to think that the millions of books in the library system's collections will all be suddenly digitized. It's not going to happen anytime soon, though it's conceivable that it could happen within a couple of decades. The library will either have to digitize the material themselves and/or buy the rights to digital copies that they can distribute. Otherwise, simply closing them would deprive communities of sources of information, knowledge, and culture. Lower income people need access to internet if the government insists on only providing applications for services and employment online. Libraries also provide valuable meeting spaces and a place for youth to go and do something positive. "Big boxing" the library system (creating one larger branch and closing three) will only make neighbourhoods less walkable and make it harder for people to access the library's resources.
Irishmonk
Senior Member
^Good points, Junction. We will always need real books for the hard copies. And a public sphere for the collection, dissemination and perusal of information has always been a central part of any advanced society.
Here's another petition that's been making the rounds.
http://ourpubliclibrary.to/
Here's another petition that's been making the rounds.
http://ourpubliclibrary.to/
sixrings
Senior Member
I agree things look better on paper and is easier to read. Athough I do think it will probably get easier in the futre as technology gets better. I never thought wed see people watching TV on their cell phones but its happening. Yes I do edit on paper. But when I take a book from the library I cant make notes everywhere in the book. However on some ebooks (the sony one for sure) you can take notes and highlight things in the books. I think you can also purchase digital copies that allow you to print.
Marko
Active Member
The surplus was left from the previus budget year - it doesn't mean the following year will have the same surplus.
Ie: You have $150 in the bank on Jan 1, but it doesn't mean it will be there Dec 31 - especially if you know your rent is going up by $25 a month, not to mention you have to start paying for the furniture that you got 15 months ago that was "no payments till 2011!"
You either have to move to a cheaper place, stop eating out as much, or get a 2nd job. You could always mooch off your parents, but they're hard up for cash now too, having re-mortgaged their home twice and canceling their vacations this year. You could ask your boss for a raise, but times are tough and he said no last time, so that's not something to hope for.
You could put any extra expenses on your credit card too, but that's what you've been doing and at this point your minimum monthly payments aren't paying down the principal at all.
What to do?