canmark
Active Member
I wonder which side Ford will take in this incident? Support the police? Or support Sammy Yatim's family? Which side is Ford Nation on?
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Sammy Yatim Shooting
- Thread starter M.R.Victor
- Start date
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Even the Toronto Sun is having an identity crisis on this, so it won't be easy for Ford(s).
TOareaFan
Superstar
I can't speak for Ford Nation...not a member....but is it not possible there are more options than Police or Sammy's Family?
We should all be loathe to make quick judgements on this (and I am) but it looks to me that what we have here is one gravely, horrible, critical error by one policeman. The most amazing thing to me about the videos we have seen is how calmly most (almost all) of the other police officers at the scene were acting. In particular, the one very prominently displayed female officer who has, likely, the best view of the inside of the streetcar. Then one officer seems to react in a manner that, to us, seems way out of line with the situation and, from the videos, way out of line from how the other officers are reacting.
Is it not possible that, if all of what we seem to know turns out true, and the police service gets out in front of that and acknowledges that one officer acted inappropriately (and they deal with that reality - if it is what it is) that we can support, both, the service and the family? Or do we have to condemn the entire service based on the actions of one member?
Again, assuming the situation is as clear cut as it appears.
EDIT....conversely....I don't think it makes anyone "anti-police" to be questioning the actions of, primarily, that one officer on that night.
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AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
We have no choice but to - the TPS isn't exactly new to controversy - and at some point, you can't really use the "one rotten apple" argument. The efficacy of the entire service can be based on the actions of one - it's a hierarchical command for a reason.
AoD
voxpopulicosmicum
Senior Member
Yes, that would be a wonderful, restorative happening. Is there anything in the history of the Toronto Police that suggests such an outcome is possible?
To be clear, the killer appears to have been -- relatively speaking -- thrown under the bus quite quickly by both the force and the cops' union (i.e. neither has branded him a hero and questioned the sanity of those who have doubts about the propriety of the shooting; as an aside, the barrel-suckers in this thread would do well to note that even the usual media chorus of dirty-cop defenders is either hostile or remarkably quiet on this one). But "thrown under the bus" is relative in that the killer will:
- continue to be paid from the public treasury, probably until retirement age, but at a minimum for 3 or 4 years
- have a stable of trolls (both paid und unpaid) to muddy the watters of public discourse by talking up irrelevant details about the victim
- have his legal bills (if he is even charged) paid for
- know that -- no matter what happens -- the chances of a police officer going to jail are miniscule
Roy G Biv
Senior Member
If this played out how we think it played out, there will be IMMENSE public pressure for a jail sentence.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Roy G Biv:
Right now yes. 6 months down the road, doubtful.
AoD
Right now yes. 6 months down the road, doubtful.
AoD
js97
Senior Member
Union benefits!
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
js97:
Indeed - one that his worship agree with, apparently. That aside, process is process, Union or not.
AoD
Indeed - one that his worship agree with, apparently. That aside, process is process, Union or not.
AoD
Torontovibe
Senior Member
When do police ever get a jail sentence for something like this? If you know something I don't, please inform me because as far as I know, no officer has gotten any jail time for any situation like this. (and there have been a number of them)
Roy G Biv
Senior Member
I have no idea. My remark was about public pressure. There is a pretty solid public consensus on this incident (as of right now). That is pretty rare with these kinds of shootings.
voxpopulicosmicum
Senior Member
^Let's recall the racketeering/extortion ring that was run by 52 Div's (i.e. the Entertainment District's) undercover squad for years. In addition to the police officers' own crimes (perjury, assault, extortion, bribery, etc.), hundreds of criminal charges had to be thrown out. Admittedly the circumstances are very different from this case, but in the 52 div. racketeering case, I would argue that the justice system had even more incentive to throw the book at the dirty cops, as the damage to the justice system was massive. And yet that same justice system saw fit to avoid imposing any custodial sentence.
Torontovibe
Senior Member
The reality is a police officer can shoot and kill any of us, at any time and he will not get jail time. The powers that be will always find some way to justify it and your loss of life will be just another casualty of the system. Our justice system is not here to protect us, it's here to protect the people in power who created it. If the G8 debacle taught me anything, it's that the average Joe Blow is powerless against the system, so shut up and take whatever the cops dish out to you. There is no justice in life, so just deal with it.
I would never defend myself against a police officer, no matter what injustice they do to me, because I know in the long run, I will always end up paying the price and the officer will get a free pass. That's just the way our system was created and remains. We like to pretend we have a justice system that protects us all equally but it's just a lie.
I predict no serious jail time for this cop. Let's wait and see if I'm right.
I would never defend myself against a police officer, no matter what injustice they do to me, because I know in the long run, I will always end up paying the price and the officer will get a free pass. That's just the way our system was created and remains. We like to pretend we have a justice system that protects us all equally but it's just a lie.
I predict no serious jail time for this cop. Let's wait and see if I'm right.
James_D
Active Member
So how will robbie address the situation? I don't know, let's see if he can somehow manage to sound tactless and stupid.
"The police will investigate it, I'm sure everything will come out in the wash" Mayor Rob Ford on Sammy Yatim shooting
"The police will investigate it, I'm sure everything will come out in the wash" Mayor Rob Ford on Sammy Yatim shooting
voxpopulicosmicum
Senior Member
^^I tend to have a similarly dismal view, but I note the following:
1. As long as we have (i) a constitution and (ii) governments that purport to respect the rule of law, there's always the chance that the system can correct itself (I'll admit that I don't see this as a great likelihood); and
2. Given that all powerful interests seek to protect their power to some extent, the fact that Canadian public officials don't strictly adhere to the rule of law is not a shocking revelation. There are degrees of good and bad governance, and it is more meaningful to evaluate Canadian (or Ontario, or Toronto, etc.) society relative to others. In this respect, we're "not as bad" as many places.
None of the foregoing means that we should accept excuses for anything less than optimal governance, of course, but we should be careful in thinking just because some cops get away with crimes up to and including murder, we have to accept that "there is no justice in life". In fact, I would argue that there are large doses of justice in life, and we get angry about the injustice because it is somewhat anomalous.
Anyway, I'll stop now because it feels weird to be talking someone down from abandoning hope in our society. Perhaps I'm just playing mealy-mouthed devil's advocate, because there are days when I would have written exactly what you just wrote.
1. As long as we have (i) a constitution and (ii) governments that purport to respect the rule of law, there's always the chance that the system can correct itself (I'll admit that I don't see this as a great likelihood); and
2. Given that all powerful interests seek to protect their power to some extent, the fact that Canadian public officials don't strictly adhere to the rule of law is not a shocking revelation. There are degrees of good and bad governance, and it is more meaningful to evaluate Canadian (or Ontario, or Toronto, etc.) society relative to others. In this respect, we're "not as bad" as many places.
None of the foregoing means that we should accept excuses for anything less than optimal governance, of course, but we should be careful in thinking just because some cops get away with crimes up to and including murder, we have to accept that "there is no justice in life". In fact, I would argue that there are large doses of justice in life, and we get angry about the injustice because it is somewhat anomalous.
Anyway, I'll stop now because it feels weird to be talking someone down from abandoning hope in our society. Perhaps I'm just playing mealy-mouthed devil's advocate, because there are days when I would have written exactly what you just wrote.