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Sammy Yatim Shooting

Cops are human beings and cannot be expected to set their emotions aside when working.

Sure they can. The rest of us are. No one is really free to express all the emotions they might be feeling while at work. Other jobs, e.g. emergency room medical staff, require you to keep a cool head while under stress, including having your own safety threatened.
 
Yeah, and every so often someone snaps. A doctor loses (or abuses) a patient, a priest fondles a little boy, a teacher assaults a student... none of these things are OK in any way, but in an organization of 5000+ officers with thousands of interactions with the public every day, things will happen once in a while since we're talking about human beings here. The situation and people involved need to be dealt with and organizational protocols need to be reviewed and adjusted, but it's simply impossible to expect 100.00000% perfection, ever.

Sammy Yatim should have been arrested, charged and be waiting to go to court, but one officer lost it. My personal hunch is that he didn't even realize he unloaded the extra 6 rounds into the kid and was acting on shot nerves at that point. Most police officers go their whole career without discharging their weapon even once and I think it was some kind of situational stress thing where he simply lost his shit, for lack of better words.
 
3) After being knocked down by initial fire, knife-wielding suspects are known to transform into knife-wielding zombies. Therefore, it is important to ensure that the suspect is dead by littering his/her body with bullets. Finally, the corpse must be burned within 24 hours.
I wonder. I mean after the guy was lying on the floor from the bullets, I guess he could still get get up and attack the officer so he needed 6 more bullets to ensure that doesn't happen.
 
Yeah, and every so often someone snaps. A doctor loses (or abuses) a patient, a priest fondles a little boy, a teacher assaults a student... none of these things are OK in any way, but in an organization of 5000+ officers with thousands of interactions with the public every day, things will happen once in a while since we're talking about human beings here. The situation and people involved need to be dealt with and organizational protocols need to be reviewed and adjusted, but it's simply impossible to expect 100.00000% perfection, ever.

I don't think "nobody's perfect, sh1t happens" is a justification for killing someone, nor any of the other violations you mentioned.
 
Looks fairly cut and dried that lethal force was justified.
I agree. After murderer James Forcillo put 3 bullets in someone who he chose to confront, rather than doing his job, other officers should have shot James Forcillo before he had a chance to put 6 more bullets in the victim.

It might have saved an innocent life.

Seriously though ... lethal force was necessary? What is wrong with you? How could anyone possibly suggest that lethal force was necessary. The guy was contained in a streetcar, and the incident was only minutes old. What would have been wrong with simply containing him there for a few hours (I believe the TPS is familiar with the concept of containing people for many hours). And using non-lethal force such as rubber bullets or a taser if he tried to exit the streetcar.
 
Seriously though ... lethal force was necessary? What is wrong with you? How could anyone possibly suggest that lethal force was necessary.

Well, I did say justified. It's the officer's call, and by the book, it looks like the scenario fell within the parameters of employing lethal force. The officer thought it was necessary in that moment.

The guy was contained in a streetcar, and the incident was only minutes old. What would have been wrong with simply containing him there for a few hours

Well, it doesn't have to follow some kind of strict formula for time frames. And yea, it could have gone differently if the officer had decided not to fire when Sammy made the sudden move for the door. But he did shoot. That was his call, and it was his to make, and it looks like it all falls within proper protocols.


And using non-lethal force such as rubber bullets or a taser if he tried to exit the streetcar.

...And maybe they could tuck him in and read him a bedtime story as well. Why would they employ non-lethal force against a lethal weapon???? Dream on. I've seen police have a hard time tasering unarmed crazy individuals.

You keep thinking that they were all there trying to keep Sammy from harms way. Sammy was a very troubled kid who did a very stupid thing by putting the police in a position where killing him was a distinct option.
 
That was his call, and it was his to make, and it looks like it all falls within proper protocols.
Tasering someone AFTER putting 9 bullets in them follows proper protocols? Could reference any tasering guideline that recommends shooting someone before tasering?

Given the unusual TPS move to suspend him straight away, it would appear that even the TPS has concerns that it falls within proper protocols. What do you know that the TPS doesn't?

The only clear thing that comes out of this, is that letting all cops carry guns is only going to cause unnecessary deaths.
 
Tasering someone AFTER putting 9 bullets in them follows proper protocols? Could reference any tasering guideline that recommends shooting someone before tasering?

If you stopped to actually think about it, you might not even have to ask, as the answer is rather simple.

The only clear thing that comes out of this, is that letting all cops carry guns is only going to cause unnecessary deaths.

And now you know why you can't be taken seriously.
 
If you stopped to actually think about it, you might not even have to ask, as the answer is rather simple.
No, I don't see the answer to that one. How was tasering someone helpful after putting 9 bullets into them? Why was it necessary to pump 6 more bullets into him 5 seconds after the 3rd bullet, when he's lying on the ground twitching ... was he going to pull the trigger on his knife in some kind of death spasm?

Do you really think bullet number 9 was appropriate?

Do you really think tasering him after bullet number 9 was necessary?

And now you know why you can't be taken seriously.
Why not? There have been municipal police forces in Canada that didn't routinely all carry guns. And they didn't seem to have a higher death rate of officers than we do.

When was the last time a police officer on patrol carrying a gun made a difference in Toronto? Seems to me that it's a lot longer ago than the last time the police shot someone who wasn't carrying a gun - which we seem to hear about regularly.

It doesn't mean that they can't get access to guns when necessary. Why do you sound incredulous about something that is standard practice in other countries ... countries where the police kill far less people than in Toronto.
 
I agree. After murderer James Forcillo put 3 bullets in someone who he chose to confront, rather than doing his job, other officers should have shot James Forcillo before he had a chance to put 6 more bullets in the victim. .

Don't take freshcutgrass too seriously, he is obviously delusional. Or perhaps he works for Mr. Brauti, Lawyer to the Police (defending Toronto's finest badged criminals).
 
I can't say that I find fault with the officers first volley of shoots and I think most feel the same way. Which means that Sammy was very much responsible for what happened to him. Possibly entirely responsible, as the lethal blow may in fact have been dealt in that first volley. But that alone doesn't change how we should perceive what happened next. Its quite clear from the video's that Sammy is on the ground after the first volley. It then appears(in the gray & white video) that he moves one of his legs while on the ground and this is(possibly) what triggered the second volley of shots. I'm not faulting the officer for that action yet at this point, as all the facts have yet to be presented. As the officer may have simply been following protocol or his training i.e. even if the suspect collapses on the ground, any kind of movement is still to be perceived as a threat. But its difficult to fathom how Sammy could of been perceived as a imminent threat to the officer at that moment, even if he is still holding the knife, considering his position on the floor of the streetcar and the position of the officer. Its also hard to fathom why some don't seem to understand why many of us have concerns with what transpired.

Nobody knows for sure at this point, but from my observation of the vids, he did go down on the first 3 shots, but that officer did not move in yet fired more shots, leaving me to believe that Sammy was injured but still capable of causing harm in the eyes of the shooter.

Currently your only evidence for such is; because he fired 6 more shots that automatically means that Sammy was still viewed as threat to the officer. Logically that makes sense, but only if you assume that all officers apply good judgement and reasoning in all their actions at all times. I would agree that the vast majority of the time those in the position of law enforcement give us little reason to doubt that they don't uphold that standard. But we don't live in some utopian society and there are no absolutes in this world. The evidence for which you can find in a simple goggle search such as ''police officer negligence'' which yields 8.68 million results.

Furthermore you do not know what the officers actual thought process was. For all we know the office in question may have already admitted to the SIU that the shooting was in bad judgement or that he was functioning on adrenaline or perhaps he was simply following police protocol. The latter of which would of course absolve him of any wrongdoing.

But I question why only this particular officer perceived Sammy to be such a threat, when no other officers in the immediate vicinity discharged their guns included at least one standing directly beside him who also had his gun drawn at Sammy.

Even after all 9 shots are fired, the body language of all the officers still keeping their distance means the situation was still not clear. It was only after the one officer carefully approached and tasered him did the rest seem to look safe and they all rushed in.

Notice they were still ordering him to drop the knofe after he was shot, as well as when he was tasered. The suggestion that all of these cops concocted some silent conspiracy on the spot to pretend Sammy was still alive and dangerous when he was dead is a theory you can't possibly ask me to take seriously.

I don't see how you could possibly use that to substantiate your claim that Sammy was still a threat requiring lethal force. First off most of the officers appear to be positioned such that they do not have a clear view of Sammy while he's on the ground inside the streetcar. Therefore they have no idea what hes actually doing and whether or not he still a threat. Obviously they're not just going to lower their guard until the suspect's status is clear to them. How careless would that be? Besides that, it's standard protocol to behave as cautiously as they did. They're not amateurs who are just going to walk around casually after a shooting.

It means you have committed to killing them.

That's utterly preposterous.

The intent of lethal force is not to kill someone per say, its to stop someone by any means necessary even if that results in their death. It's a subtle but important(and clear) distinction, but one that is completely lost on you. The end goal of lethal force is NOT the suspects death.
 
I don't think "nobody's perfect, sh1t happens" is a justification for killing someone, nor any of the other violations you mentioned.
Where did I say it was a justification of any kind!@#?

It was a response to your comment that people can keep their emotions in check and keep a cool head under stress. This is the goal, the ideal, it's what they train for - but it's not reasonable to expect that no one ever, ever slips. Since we're talking human beings here - fallible people - you kind of have to expect it, but it's NOT ok for them to slip in such a way that they kill someone, abduct someone, etc...
 
Where did I say it was a justification of any kind!@#?

It was a response to your comment that people can keep their emotions in check and keep a cool head under stress. This is the goal, the ideal, it's what they train for - but it's not reasonable to expect that no one ever, ever slips. Since we're talking human beings here - fallible people - you kind of have to expect it, but it's NOT ok for them to slip in such a way that they kill someone, abduct someone, etc...

Then you are arguing against a point that no one has made.
 
That's utterly preposterous.

The intent of lethal force is not to kill someone per say, its to stop someone by any means necessary even if that results in their death. It's a subtle but important(and clear) distinction, but one that is completely lost on you. The end goal of lethal force is NOT the suspects death.

My goal is not to kill you per say. My goal is to put live rounds into your chest cavity.

I have an electron microscope trying to find this important and clear distinction you speak of, and it isn't working. What a lovely bit of semantics.
 

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