Rob Ford's Toronto

[somuchwater]

The problem is... what they "care about" is getting more stuff/services/subways while paying less taxes and cutting imaginary gravy. Which brings us back to ignorance.

I guess I'm just a bit astounded that someo people - like you - believe that this is a simple question of 'ignorance', and not one of a poor job by media, or awful candidates who can't sell an idea. I think if we're going to talk about ignorance, then how about we focus on people who believe that a very significant portion of Toronto's voters - let's say, roughly, at least 20% - are simply stupid?

 

[somuchwater]

I do not believe that.



I would agree with you if something like 90% of people who voted for Ford were minimum wage, suburban, minority voters. But that is not what happened. Very poor people as well as many very rich people voted for the man. He had support from a wide variety of people from a large part (geographically) of the city. This idea that it is wrong to generalize something about a group of people (within reasonable limits, of course), just because some of the people in that group may happen to have something in common is ridiculous.

Which simply brings us back around to the idea that all of these people from different economic and ethnic groups are just dumb. But I guess if you actually believe that class and race had nothing to do with why Ford got elected, then I feel like I have precisely no reason to listen to what you have to say.

Edit: Also, in regards to the bolded part: are you serious? Tell me you're not being serious.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The problem is... what they "care about" is getting more stuff/services/subways while paying less taxes and cutting imaginary gravy. Which brings us back to ignorance.

But is that entirely their fault though? Not everyone who voted for him is an idiot. In the 2010 campaign, it would have been the responsibility of other candidates to show that what Ford was saying was complete and utter nonsense. They failed at that. Can we reasonably expect people to spend hours pouring through documentation to see that what Ford was saying is nonsense, when the media and other candidates wouldn't do it either?

Just playing the devils advocate.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

somuchwater:

Nope! That's just yet another assertion utterly devoid of any intelligence or sympathy. Will there be some people who vote for Ford to stick it to those liberal commies? Sure! But if Ford is re-elected, it will be because no other candidate will actually address the issues Ford voters care about.

Did Rob Ford actually address said issues? Or did he use said issues as wedges while doing practically nothing about it?

AoD

 

[evvabeing]

i'm extra pleased that this is from the sun...

Mayor Rob Ford doesn't do himself any favours

"It’s a pity for him and his reputation that he chooses to so often let himself go by abusing fellow fans at a hockey game, reading while driving, blowing up in council and being consistently late for events.

That is looking like a pattern of behaviour that does neither him nor his supporters any favours at all."

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/08/12/mayor-rob-ford-doesnt-do-himself-any-favours

 

[mrtinfoilsocket]

But is that entirely their fault though? Not everyone who voted for him is an idiot. In the 2010 campaign, it would have been the responsibility of other candidates to show that what Ford was saying was complete and utter nonsense. They failed at that. Can we reasonably expect people to spend hours pouring through documentation to see that what Ford was saying is nonsense, when the media and other candidates wouldn't do it either?

Just playing the devils advocate.

Right and I think that's a fair statement and is why I'm willing to cut original Ford voters some slack. Personally, I think anybody of above average intelligence realized that Ford was an imbecilic buffoon with a loud mouth and virtually zero class or vision. But I understand how that slipped by so many people who didn't follow politics closely and simply wanted a break on their taxes. But I have less tolerance now for his vocal supporters that don't seem to care about ANYTHING Rob does wrong and simply parrot back his moronic talking points like they're the word of god.

I've said it before... I can recognize that I'm a bit of a partisan at times but throughout my life I've found flaws with every single political personality or party I've ever supported. I've been able to point out things I disagreed with and on the flip side been able to point out things I DID agree with in the opponents platforms. I've even changed my mind. If you can't do that I think you're either being intellectually dishonest or lack critical thinking skills because it's virtually impossible for a person to agree 100% with "their guy". Ford supporters on the other hand seem almost completely incapable of this.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Which simply brings us back around to the idea that all of these people from different economic and ethnic groups are just dumb. But I guess if you actually believe that class and race had nothing to do with why Ford got elected, then I feel like I have precisely no reason to listen to what you have to say.

Edit: Also, in regards to the bolded part: are you serious? Tell me you're not being serious.

Yes, I am being serious.

I really am hoping I'm somehow misunderstanding what you're trying to say.

Let's use LGBT individuals as an example. They overwhelmingly support left leaning candidates. Do you really mean to tell me that if somebody says "People who support Justin Trudeau are dummies", they are now making a homophobic comment?

Or if somebody says, "I think anybody who votes for Tim Hudak is an idiot" they're being ageist against, sexist and racist against older, white men.

Or in the United States, if someone says "People who vote for Obama are idiots", they are now being racist, ageist, classist, homophobic and sexist against african americans, latinos, women, younger individuals, LGBT individuals and anybody who's been to university or college.


Yes, the comments are ill advised, but the idea that somebody who says them is being racist (or any other type of discrimination) is absolutely absurd.

 

[mrtinfoilsocket]

I guess I'm just a bit astounded that someo people - like you - believe that this is a simple question of 'ignorance', and not one of a poor job by media, or awful candidates who can't sell an idea. I think if we're going to talk about ignorance, then how about we focus on people who believe that a very significant portion of Toronto's voters - let's say, roughly, at least 20% - are simply stupid?

How can you possibly sell an idea when Rob's supporters refuse to listen to ANYTHING else... and jump through ANY logical hoop to defend him? They believe in some cost cutting, working class, hero of the people narrative that doesn't exist and any attempt to explain otherwise brings out their wrath and vicious name calling. Any story that reflects badly on Rob is denounced as some kind of ridiculous left wing conspiracy as if the reporters involved are all lying and fabricating their sources out of thin air.

Whenever the Toronto Sun posts an article regarding the crack scandal there are Ford Nation supporters in the comment forums screaming about how the entire thing is a plot by the "Red Star" to bring down Rob. Seriously... that's stupid AND ignorant and I make no apologies for thinking so.

 

[somuchwater]

Yes, I am being serious.

I really am hoping I'm somehow misunderstanding what you're trying to say.

Let's use LGBT individuals as an example. They overwhelmingly support left leaning candidates. Do you really mean to tell me that if somebody says "People who support Justin Trudeau are dummies", they are now making a homophobic comment?

Or if somebody says, "I think anybody who votes for Tim Hudak is an idiot" they're being ageist against, sexist and racist against older, white men.

Or in the United States, if someone says "People who vote for Obama are idiots", they are now being racist and sexist against african americans, latinos and women.


Yes, the comments are ill advised, but the idea that somebody who says them is being racist (or any other type of discrimination) is absolutely absurd.

I agree the examples you've given are absurd - especially the idea that you can be sexist or racist against white men (lol) - but you seem to be missing the point. The general sentiment I'm objecting to is that there is no content to Ford voters' concerns. It is simply a knee-jerk reaction to progressivism, or it's just plain ignorance. What underpins that feeling or opinion? Where did come it from? In what context of suburban-urban tension, history, class, race etc was it formed? These things did not arrive in a vacuum.

It's stupid in this instance to try and neatly demarcate what is and is not clearly a "racist" or "classist" sentiment. But it's naive and irresponsible to think that you can simply separate out the progressive, urban reaction against Ford voters from broader issues of classism and racism. It's important, too, to think about that dynamic on both ends - of how and why Ford's message was able to connect with his base in a way that others couldn't, and why after he was elected, the chatter on places like UT about Ford voters veered between dismissiveness and outright hostility.

 

[typezed]

I'll never understand how people elected this guy, but I'm willing to believe that a good lot of them voted originally out of some sincere belief. It's not like the other options were particularly wonderful, or the progressive side of Toronto politics presents any clear path for improvement.

But if after events like this weekend, someone paying attention to the news won't stop and be concerned about the (I say almost certain) possibility that he drove himself there drunk, or that his manner was undignified for a leader, or that he was unprofessional in not being there for event organizers and being absent to his own staff, or that people on the street are mocking him, and instead hide behind some statement like "he was having a good time with a couple beers at a street party and getting down with the regular people" then I don't know what is driving them, be it spite or stupidity. He never even made it to the street party, he was 2km away.

And then there are all the connections to drugs and crime. If someone is aware of any of that and still think wants to claim it's the result of the media picking on Rob, I don't have any explanation for why they choose to be so oblivious.

We won't even talk about how he seems disinterested and inattentive to his job.

 

[Adaax]

"Is the day coming when Rob Ford will have to address some very uncomfortable questions about his behaviour?"

Have to say I enjoy that bit of coyness from the Sun reporter who authored this piece.

 

[Gavin]

Apparently the Star is launching its paywall tomorrow with no prior notice (other than a very general "one is coming"). I wonder if they're getting close to dropping some new news, or if that's just my own wishful thinking.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I agree the examples you've given are absurd - especially the idea that you can be sexist or racist against white men (lol) - but you seem to be missing the point. The general sentiment I'm objecting to is that there is no content to Ford voters' concerns. It is simply a knee-jerk reaction to progressivism, or it's just plain ignorance. What underpins that feeling or opinion? Where did come it from? In what context of suburban-urban tension, history, class, race etc was it formed? These things did not arrive in a vacuum.

It's stupid in this instance to try and neatly demarcate what is and is not clearly a "racist" or "classist" sentiment. But it's naive and irresponsible to think that you can simply separate out the progressive, urban reaction against Ford voters from broader issues of classism and racism. It's important, too, to think about that dynamic on both ends - of how and why Ford's message was able to connect with his base in a way that others couldn't, and why after he was elected, the chatter on places like UT about Ford voters veered between dismissiveness and outright hostility.

Okay, now I'm starting to see what your saying and where you're coming from.

For the record, I'm still not convinced that OSS 117 was trying to be classist or racist with his comments. I really feel that you really are connecting far too many dots. It was a dumb comment and nothing more.

But I fully agree with everything else you said. As with anything in politics, there are definitely demographic patterns that do make voters more likely to vote for a certain person. These absolutely cannot be ignored. And as you said, to believe that people voted for Ford out of plain ignorance or spite is ignorant in itself. Most voters do have logic behind who they selected. To dismiss this logic would be to shoot yourself in the foot.

 

[mrtinfoilsocket]

I'll never understand how people elected this guy, but I'm willing to believe that a good lot of them voted originally out of some sincere belief. It's not like the other options were particularly wonderful, or the progressive side of Toronto politics presents any clear path for improvement.

But if after events like this weekend, someone paying attention to the news won't stop and be concerned about the (I say almost certain) possibility that he drove himself there drunk, or that his manner was undignified for a leader, or that he was unprofessional in not being there for event organizers and being absent to his own staff, or that people on the street are mocking him, and instead hide behind some statement like "he was having a good time with a couple beers at a street party and getting down with the regular people" then I don't know what is driving them, be it spite or stupidity. He never even made it to the street party, he was 2km away.

And then there are all the connections to drugs and crime. If someone is aware of any of that and still think wants to claim it's the result of the media picking on Rob, I don't have any explanation for why they choose to be so oblivious.

We won't even talk about how he seems disinterested and inattentive to his job.

Agreed. I think you managed to capture a little more eloquently the exact same thing I was trying to express earlier.

 

[mrtinfoilsocket]

Apparently the Star is launching its paywall tomorrow with no prior notice (other than a very general "one is coming"). I wonder if they're getting close to dropping some new news, or if that's just my own wishful thinking.

Was thinking the same.