Rob Ford's Toronto

[nfitz]

I was asked to give a few reason’s Miller was a crappy mayor (which he was).

How anyone could be so utterly ignorant to think that Miller was responsible for a financial scandal that happened during Tory mayor Mel Lastman, that councillor David Miller was instrumental in uncovering and bringing to light.

Nothing then that malvern2 says should be taken seriously, given the extent of the attempted deception.

Clearly malvern2 is trolling, in make such claims.

 

[malvern2]

Don’t agree with my views, that’s fine. But do NOT call me a troll, I’ve been on this forum for YEARS and have never been anything but a fan of the site, just because my arguments or opinions anger you or you feel elsewise does not give you cause throw an internet fit .You need to be an adult and accept you live in democracy where people will have different ideas, values and beliefs then you.

 

[doug]

You need to be an adult and accept you live in democracy where people will have different ideas, values and beliefs then you.

You need to be an adult and realise that posting absolute lies and BS, as though it's the truth, just makes you look like a troll.

 

[Ice_Burn]

Don’t agree with my views, that’s fine. But do NOT call me a troll, I’ve been on this forum for YEARS and have never been anything but a fan of the site, just because my arguments or opinions anger you or you feel elsewise does not give you cause throw an internet fit .You need to be an adult and accept you live in democracy where people will have different ideas, values and beliefs then you.

Okay, but some ideas are just plain wrong. Putting sugar in your gas tank is an idea, but a bad one.

The notion that everyone's ideas are equal to everyone else's and deserve equal time/weight is crazy, and who could blame anyone for thinking you're trolling when you trot out blatantly nonsensical ideas like Miller is responsible for the MFP scandal when he, in fact, exposed it? Why should such a notion be entertained even for a minute?

You are either trolling or badly, badly misinformed. The other posters were actually giving you a bit of credit by calling you a troll because it's the better of the two options.

 

[nfitz]

Don’t agree with my views, that’s fine.

Perhaps you can detail your libellous views on how councillor David Miller is responsible for the 1998 MFP financing scandal, rather than being one of the councillors who actually uncovered it.

But do NOT call me a troll

And yet you come here with such a huge absurd lie, and try and pass it off as reality.

You need to be an adult and accept you live in democracy where people will have different ideas, values and beliefs then you.

What belief system you have where it's fine to make up lies which are the complete opposite of what actually happened?

Your claims are absolutely shocking - it's bad enough that we have a morally corrupt mayor like Rob Ford, rather than an outstanding family man like George Smitherman. But now your going to start making complete lies about what happened in the MFP scandal?

 

[malvern2]

I get the forum leans heavily on one political side so I’ll just forget about having a logical discussion without getting bullied on the forum, I stand 100% by my arguments and points. As if all your points are somehow 100% correct and valid because your side is the right side. Nfitz The last few lines of your last post is a JOKE and proves my point perfectly, you can get away with idiotic statements like that but anyone arguing the other side is morally corrupt huh?

 

[BurlOak]

Ummm the net debt after Miller left office was more than a BILLION dollars more than when he took over in 2003! For that alone he should have been run out of this city. His handling of unions, constant tax hikes, the MFP computer scandal, his introduction of the land transfer tax, the bike lanes on Jarvis, the fact no one in the burbs wants his vision of light rail...and his attendance in council was a joke. Gimme Ford over that bum any day.

I partially agree with the rest that your inclusion of MFP in this list was an error - although I assume it was accidental. It is actually the reason Miller came in (with his broom). Your other points are quite valid and I say you are batting about 0.750 - with one error.

 

[nfitz]

... I stand 100% by my arguments and points.

Not once in either the 2003 or 2007 election did I hear any of Miller's opponents blame Miller for the MFP financing scandal. Nor did I hear it mentioned in the 2011 election. Not once in the media have I have seen his name linked to this. Nor have I even seen it here on these blogs.

What evidence do you have to support your claim?

I partially agree with the rest that your inclusion of MFP in this list was an error - although I assume it was accidental. It is actually the reason Miller came in (with his broom). Your other points are quite valid and I say you are batting about 0.750 - with one error.

He has been given about 4 chances to correct his claim about Miller and MFP, and he has been very clear that he stands behind his claim.

 

[Ice_Burn]

I get the forum leans heavily on one political side so I’ll just forget about having a logical discussion without getting bullied on the forum, I stand 100% by my arguments and points. As if all your points are somehow 100% correct and valid because your side is the right side. Nfitz The last few lines of your last post is a JOKE and proves my point perfectly, you can get away with idiotic statements like that but anyone arguing the other side is morally corrupt huh?

What logical discussion can one have when you literally make things up?

 

[bobbob911]

Don’t agree with my views, that’s fine. But do NOT call me a troll, I’ve been on this forum for YEARS and have never been anything but a fan of the site, just because my arguments or opinions anger you or you feel elsewise does not give you cause throw an internet fit .You need to be an adult and accept you live in democracy where people will have different ideas, values and beliefs then you.

If so, why not take even one of your views and defend it critically? You have stated opinions but not backed them up with any facts.

Why not start by apologizing for smearing Miller with the MFP scandal?

 

[bobbob911]

I partially agree with the rest that your inclusion of MFP in this list was an error - although I assume it was accidental. It is actually the reason Miller came in (with his broom). Your other points are quite valid and I say you are batting about 0.750 - with one error.

Okay, so if you agree with his other points, then answer this please: Why would you disagree with the introduction of the Land Transfer Tax, when Rob Ford himself has stated that the city is *still* in desperate need of revenue, even including the LTT?

 

[voxpopulicosmicum]

^The defence of the false assertion about Miller/MFP reminds me of Rob Ford's defence to the conflict of interest charge: "I BELIEVE in a different reality, and if that reality existed, I would not be guilty".

 

[BurlOak]

Okay, so if you agree with his other points, then answer this please: Why would you disagree with the introduction of the Land Transfer Tax, when Rob Ford himself has stated that the city is *still* in desperate need of revenue, even including the LTT?

I believe the points were

Did Miller act adequately with unions
Did Miller increase spending by more than inflation
Did Miller raise taxes (and fees) by more than inflation
Did Miller leave large debt

I think the answers are yes

Did Toronto become better as the result of this increased spending
Did Torontonians notice any negative effects from the Ford cuts

I think the answers are no.

 

[ShonTron]

^The defence of the false assertion about Miller/MFP reminds me of Rob Ford's defence to the conflict of interest charge: "I BELIEVE in a different reality, and if that reality existed, I would not be guilty".

Right-wingers sure go for that truthiness! After all, facts have a liberal bias.

 

[bobbob911]

I believe the points were

His points were quite explicit:

Originally Posted by malvern2
Ummm the net debt after Miller left office was more than a BILLION dollars more than when he took over in 2003! For that alone he should have been run out of this city. His handling of unions, constant tax hikes, the MFP computer scandal, his introduction of the land transfer tax, the bike lanes on Jarvis, the fact no one in the burbs wants his vision of light rail...and his attendance in council was a joke. Gimme Ford over that bum any day.

But I would gladly address your points:

Did Miller act adequately with unions

My own personal opinion is this is a Nixon going to China moment. Clearly Ford was in a better position to play hardball with the unions than Miller. The state of the economy now also helped. We also have 8 years of labour bargaining under Miller to look back at compared to 2 for Ford. Nevertheless, score one for Ford.

Did Miller increase spending by more than inflation
Did Miller raise taxes (and fees) by more than inflation

I'm sorry, I just can't get worked up about the difference between a 3.4% Miller increase and a 2.5% Ford increase. It's just petty, petulant politics. Compare to a Mississauga 9% hike, or even more in small townships.

Did Miller leave large debt

My opinion is that debt is not inherently bad. Capital investments are always, *always* debt financed. (just like your mortgage) What's important is value for money, and if the interest payments are serviceable. In the case of the former, since the vast majority of this debt is for transit, and its universally agreed that transit in this city needs a huge investment, then I think the value is there. In the case of the interest payments, our debt load is not considered high in the context of the yearly budget of our city. It's actually pretty average for cities of our size.

Did Torontonians notice any negative effects from the Ford cuts

What cuts? The Ford hack and slash agenda was stopped in its tracks by council. He ended up cutting something like $60M - a drop in the bucket for our yearly budget.