Rob Ford's Toronto

[Armbruster]

I think some people are also worried that we will build an LRT line in the morning, the City would then approve a slew of development along those LRT lines in the afternoon and by evening, the LRT needs to be replaced with a subway.

Until the existing Sheppard subway has come remotely close to meeting the expectations of its proponents, there is no good reason to believe the unfunded, magical extension will be any less of an underused money-loser in our lifetimes. Doesn't anybody remember that time, only FOUR YEARS AGO, when the City nearly voted to shut the Sheppard line down?

 

[Paleo]

Whether it is worth it depends on how much later. There is a huge cost to upsizing infrastructure when the need doesn't materialize soon enough - and keep in mind that maintenance cost grows significantly after what, 30 years?

The funny thing is building an LRT is probably the BEST way to ensure you see subways - the increased accessiblity will create pressure for densification, which could very well lead to undercapacity and necessiates improvement. That's partly how all Yonge and Bloor lines came to be.

AoD

You'd be stuck with the debt/financing for decades, the large operating subsidies which could continue indefinitely and the invisible lost opportunity costs from the more pressing projects that could have been done with that capital and operating money.

The Sheppard line is already an albatross, all day GO service with proper fare integration on all lines plus Eglinton line will kill it.

It will never be fast enough for crosstown express because building an underground rail line with stops at each 3-4km is extraordinarily stupid so stop dreaming about using it for that. Reviving GO-ALRT for this purpose makes 1000x more sense.

 

[CanadianNational]

Should this move to the transportation thread?

Scorecard from today's voting:

Less Fordism than I would have expected. Mean, stinging little cuts that will make barely a dent in the budget.

List:
http://torontoist.com/2011/09/budget-votes-at-city-hall/
Graph:
http://fordfortoronto.mattelliott.ca/misc/draft-budget-debate-hr.png

On a side note, in what manner should we procede to have Mammoliti's public thumbings civilly immobilized?

 

[insertrealname]

On a side note, in what manner should we procede to have Mammoliti's public thumbings civilly immobilized?

I must be thick this evening, I don't understand: "civilly immobilized"?!? You mean in some quick-setting concrete? Or removing the thumb swiftly via the nearest available scimitar-wielding Saracen? Are you sure there's any civil solution to Mammoliti at all? His disdainful manners to deputants at the executive Committee, in which he lolled around in his chair laughing & texting with R. Ford; his outright contempt of his colleagues at Council... the list goes on and on... and he has the gall to preach responsible government when it suits him!

 

[toraerach]

I think some people are worried that when you build an LRT line and the time comes to replace it with a subway, it would take forever to do so.

You do not necessarily have to re-build a transit corridor in order to increase its capacity. An alternative would be to build a rapid transit line that intersects said corridor in order to draw riders off of it. For example, a DRL with stations on King and Queen would reduce crowding on those lines without necessarily running in those corridors.

 

[CanadianNational]

Civilly immobilized. Er...I guess I'm wordy tonight. I was thinking of "politely stopped".

 

[neubilder]

Rob Ford's former brother-in-law is a convicted killer (killed someone with a shotgun in '98) and was charged again recently with a near fatal stabbing of a woman.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/crime/article/709186--released-killer-charged-in-woman-s-stabbing

Somehow it doesn't surprise me to hear Rob Ford's family associated with these sorts of individuals. The whole lot are belligerent white trash. And they are running Toronto!

 

[tkip]

Rob Ford's former brother-in-law is a convicted killer (killed someone with a shotgun in '98) and was charged again recently with a near fatal stabbing of a woman.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/crime/article/709186--released-killer-charged-in-woman-s-stabbing

Somehow it doesn't surprise me to hear Rob Ford's family associated with these sorts of individuals. The whole lot are belligerent white trash. And they are running Toronto!

This is an extremely offensive and repugnant statement to make. Alleging that because someone had married into Ford's family previously and then later murdered a woman now automatically means that Ford and his family are guilty of being criminals because of guilt by association. I'm disgusted with the new lows some of you guys go to.

With this logic, my sister's former husband if they had committed a crime would automatically make me a suspect because, you know, if my sister married a guy who was capable of committing a crime then that automatically means that I'm out committing crime along with my entire family and friends. The only trash here is garbage like this being posted by cowards like you.

 

[neubilder]

This is an extremely offensive and repugnant statement to make. Alleging that because someone had married into Ford's family previously and then later murdered a woman now automatically means that Ford and his family are guilty of being criminals because of guilt by association. I'm disgusted with the new lows some of you guys go to.

With this logic, my sister's former husband if they had committed a crime would automatically make me a suspect because, you know, if my sister married a guy who was capable of committing a crime then that automatically means that I'm out committing crime along with my entire family and friends. The only trash here is garbage like this being posted by cowards like you.

What is repugnant is Rob Ford uttering death threats to his wife, declaring public lynchings in his ward at the suggestion of opening a homeless shelter there, uttering racist threats at public events, and your faulty logic, inability to draw correct conclusions from written word, and name calling.

 

[CanadianNational]

There's no reason to try and smear Rob Ford based on the actions of some unfortunate in his family. That's a nasty stance to take, and uncalled for.

 

[neubilder]

There's no reason to try and smear Rob Ford based on the actions of some unfortunate in his family. That's a nasty stance to take, and uncalled for.

I don't know any convicted killers, do you? But I bet if you talk to those who do business with or are members of biker gangs, they will know quite a few.

 

[neubilder]

There's no reason to try and smear Rob Ford based on the actions of some unfortunate in his family. That's a nasty stance to take, and uncalled for.

I disagree. It is very much called for and there is no stance nastier than the Ford's. Their skeletons need to be laid out and examined. These guys are not worthy of public trust and if left to their own devices they will leave Toronto in ruin.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/torontomayoralrace/article/799971--rob-ford-s-complicated-life

 

[GenerationW]

If you build a subway line and demand/use never increases to its capacity, that is also a colossal waste. Just witness the Sheppard Stubway.

At the end of the day, the brute facts are a) subways cost more to build, and b) there isn't money for them, whereas there was for Transit City. The fixation on subways prevents Toronto from dealing with its current transit problems in an affordable, practical, and timely manner, while waiting for a "perfect" solution that is too expensive and inappropriate for demand.

At the end of the day, whenever the stars align between the City and the Province (and sometimes Ottawa), something will get built, not because there isn't enough money (there ALWAYS isn't enough money!).

Doesn't anybody remember that time, only FOUR YEARS AGO, when the City nearly voted to shut the Sheppard line down?

And what happened with that proposal? Nothing, since it was all a scare tactic as it turned out (not that dissimilar to what's going on now). Playing the part of Rob Ford back then was Adam Giambrone:

"This is one of the darkest days that we've seen," said Councillor Adam Giambrone, chairman of the TTC......."It's a horrible day for transit," Mr. Giambrone said.

I'll bet he spent hours on his favourite couch sweating over this!

Though someone saw through this:

"I'm not buying into the scare tactics," said Michael Thompson, a TTC commissioner, and one of the councillors who voted to defer the taxes. "I think it's irresponsible, to a large extent, to be making those types of suggestions. I see no reason why a subway has to be closed, for example. I just find it ludicrous."

Lots of deja vu in this story:

Toronto's municipal government is facing a $576-million operating shortfall next year.

So no one really should remember the farce of Sheppard "nearly" being shut down, just like no one remembers that Mayor Miller actually spent his first term pushing hard to extend the Sheppard "albatross" only to lose out to the Spadina extension.

Like I said, when the stars align, things will get built, Transit City or no Transit City, Ford or no Ford.

 

[GenerationW]

I disagree. It is very much called for and there is no stance nastier than the Ford's. Their skeletons need to be laid out and examined. These guys are not worthy of public trust and if left to their own devices they will leave Toronto in ruin.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/torontomayoralrace/article/799971--rob-ford-s-complicated-life

C N is right, you went too far. Smarten up, stick to his actions as Mayor, and leave his family out of it.

 

[Armbruster]

So no one really should remember the farce of Sheppard "nearly" being shut down, just like no one remembers that Mayor Miller actually spent his first term pushing hard to extend the Sheppard "albatross" only to lose out to the Spadina extension.

The difference was, back then, the City was trying to pressure the province into paying more to fund transit. Nowadays, these tactics are being used against Torontonians to justify cuts to service.

The "structural deficit" that the Fordites keep talking about is basically the transit subsidy - almost half a billion dollars last year and growing. They could cut every windrow service and Christmas bureau they want, but until something is done about the transit subsidy, the budget problems will continue.

Which is why I had been hoping there was a long play behind Ford's early aggressive moves, beyond the Tea Party theatrics. If he showed the rest of our Toronto-hating province he was a serious waste fighter, perhaps he would create the political space that would allow increased provincial funding. But then he eliminated revenue sources like the VRT, turned down free public health nurses from the province, refused to cut even windrow clearing (a "core" service for most Torontonians only since 1997), and allowed idiots like Doug Ford and Mammo to highjack his administration and turn it into a joke. It is now clear that Ford is just playing everything by ear, and there is no plan or strategy. He is pursuing subways because it feels right to pursue subways, not because he has the slightest idea about how build them, plan them or pay for them. Even if Tim Hudak was elected, he couldn't give this bunch of clowns more money even if he wanted to.

Which is why the best move for Ford now is to behave, well, like a conservative. He should stop flailing about pursuing grand, unfunded, unplanned visions and stick to what's doable, functional and affordable. That means Transit City. The alternatives are fantasies.