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Rob Ford's Toronto

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typezed said:
I cite the issues I did because these are the issues I see discussed when watching City Council or reading this forum, Spacing, Torontoist, etc. They are discussed in this city far more than say the loss of the manufacturing base in Scarborough or the difficulty of housing a family on an industrial income or the accessibility of the skilled trades. They are such prominent issues not only because the right uses them as wedge issues but because bike lanes, green roofs, and pride parades represent the change in the city most progressives (including myself, to some degree) would like to see. All I am saying is that many in the working class may understandably have different priorities. Left versus right in this city often seems to trigger on public versus private. Transit versus the automobile, public space versus the backyard. Most established working class people probably drive, and like it that way. The places they work are less accessible by transit (almost every blue collar job I've had in Toronto was in the process of moving further away from dependable transit), as are the neighbourhoods where they can afford to live. Maybe some of them have no need for Nuit Blanche and the designer parks that delight us here, and only want enough money left over from working forty-eight hours for twenty years to have a place with a deck that they can sit on in the summer. Maybe Ford and Mammolitti represent those concerns for them. Above, someone who is awful uninhibited with the bigot label makes the sideways suggestion that blue collar workers may be stupid and bigoted if they don't share his idea of their best interests. This is the sort of person and politics that blue collar folk should welcome as their advocate? Maybe they're smarter about their individual interests than you think.
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I don't think I follow the underlined sentence and the ones after it. I don't think anyone has put themselves forward as an advocate or spokesperson for the working class. I don't know what "individual interests" you're referring to. Do you mean "economic interests"? If so, then please explain why you think that to be the case.

The very point of your argument seems to be that it actually is in the interests of the working class to vote for Ford/Mammoliti, contrary to my assertion that they are "tricked" into doing so by wedge issue politics. But the reasons you cite (preference for cars, no use for Nuit Blanche) seem just to repeat wedge issues. It would be helpful if you could explain how Nuit Blanche or Sugar Beach works against the interests of the working class. Because I could certainly explain how cuts to social programs work against the interests of the working class.

The statements before the underlined sentence are very interesting and cut to the heart of the matter. You have, I think, accurately characterized the aspirations of a certain element of the working class. Yes, it is true that the values reflected in magazines like Spacing are different from those of the working class stereotype. But I don't see how that is different from any particular publication being a reflection of its audience, and Spacing doesn't pretend to be written for "everyone with a household income that is less than X dollars" (or whatever measure you use of working class).

Above all, I don't see how your descriptions of "blue collar" folk are different that what the rest of us are describing. For example, I agree 100% with your description of the working class as preferring private automobiles to public transit, largely as a function of the lack of proximity of their homes and workplaces to reliable public transit. As a formerly working class person myself, I recall there also being psychological motivations to driving my car instead of taking the bus or subway, but I will concede that the factors you describe are top of the list.

I also don't think it's an "either or" choice between, for example, Nuit Blanche and an industrial policy aimed at retaining manufacturing jobs (although I think the notion of retaining manufacturing jobs in Toronto is a lost cause, or more accurately a cause that belongs to an era that no longer exists).
 
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Filip said:
The Star had a poll on Occupy Toronto and the majority (54% when I last checked) wanted the protestors out. It should be a non-issue. They're breaking municipal bylaws and inconveniencing the neighbouring area. People have a right to use and enjoy that park; I also believe they should be charged for the damaged caused to the trees and park. The grounds are basically a mud pit now.
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Hasn't looked like a mud pit when I've walked past. Which part of the park are you referring to?

I've found the whole thing surprisingly quiet when I've been past. Unless you have a restaurant facing out over the portable toilets, with an over-priced menu that 99% of the population wouldn't go to, or your unfortunate to have your bedroom window looking out over the park, I can't see anyone being inconvenienced.
 
nfitz said:
Hasn't looked like a mud pit when I've walked past. Which part of the park are you referring to?

I've found the whole thing surprisingly quiet when I've been past. Unless you have a restaurant facing out over the portable toilets, with an over-priced menu that 99% of the population wouldn't go to, or your unfortunate to have your bedroom window looking out over the park, I can't see anyone being inconvenienced.
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I don't have first hand evidence (I won't walk through the park), but I can imagine what a month of camping, trampling, and squatting on grass will do to it. That and the rain we've been getting basically guarantees the most of the park used for the occupy movement is a mud pit.
 
Filip said:
I'm the CEO of a fortune 50 company! See we can be ANYONE on the internetz!!

If you want to complain about bailouts look at the auto sector and detroit auto makers. That was a clear case of good money thrown at bad. By October 2010, the bank portion of the TARP was seeing a ROI of 8.2%. By March 2011, the treasury was expecting to actually profit by $20 billion on its investment of $245 billion

"The transfers to the Troubled Asset Relief Program will push recoveries from banks to $251 billion in repayments of capital, dividends, interest and other income. It invested $245 billion in banks during the financial crisis to help avert a U.S. financial system collapse."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/30/us-usa-treasury-banks-idUSTRE72S7Q120110330

Finally, in your position, what would you do? Let the banks fail because of lack of liquidity or inject much needed cash to keep the operations going? I would have loved to see what the crisis would have looked like had major banks actually collapsed and taken much of their assets with them. There was no easy solution, but it was the best one.
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Wow. I just saw this. You snarky little cuss. ;) You should have seen the venom I had removed from my previous response. Your post almost makes me wish I had kept it in...but all in good fun.

I'm not sure if you actually doubt my claims to be in finance. Doesn't really matter; I'm not going to "out" myself for no good reason. Point is, I was trying to helpfully explain to you that educated people who have actually experienced the world tend not to believe that which does not accord to reality. Your views on politics seem to be informed by book-learning and pundits, rather than by experience. If you are actually intelligent and not just a half-bright book learner, you will come to understand what I am telling you. Best of luck, and I do mean that.
 
voxpopulicosmicum said:
Wow. I just saw this. You snarky little cuss. ;) You should have seen the venom I had removed from my previous response. Your post almost makes me wish I had kept it in...but all in good fun.

I'm not sure if you actually doubt my claims to be in finance. Doesn't really matter; I'm not going to "out" myself for no good reason. Point is, I was trying to helpfully explain to you that educated people who have actually experienced the world tend not to believe that which does not accord to reality. Your views on politics seem to be informed by book-learning and pundits, rather than by experience. If you are actually intelligent and not just a half-bright book learner, you will come to understand what I am telling you. Best of luck, and I do mean that.
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I'm a fresh graduate with wide-open eyes waiting to be perverted by the real world. Give me a year or two.

Check your PM.
 
I suppose that I'm trying to say that there is no natural party or philosophy for blue collar or working class people. The question was why don't they all support the left when that is in their best economic interest. To which I responded that there is diversity in individual outlooks and experiences and goals in factories and warehouses (those are the places I have experiencing working in), and at this time no one political path is going to meet their needs as a group. In city politics, the social and lifestyle goals pursued by the left on council may not always reflect the desires of many who work industrial or trade or lower-skilled jobs. People may not be opposed to those goals in a way that makes them effective as wedge issues, it's just that they are superfluous to their day to day life. Personally, I'd prefer that people vote for representatives other than the Fords and Mammoliti or provincial or federal Conservatives, I'd prefer that they all supported an urban agenda of bike lanes, streetcars and mixed-use neighbourhoods, but I wouldn't assume that they should out of some old time belief that downtrodden need to band together to overthrow their oppressors with the help of some theorists from the universities. Many in the industrial working class (although probably fewer and fewer as the economy shifts) do just fine, seem to be getting what they want out of life, and may just not have the same priorities as the progressives and activists.
 
Filip said:
I don't have first hand evidence (I won't walk through the park), but I can imagine what a month of camping, trampling, and squatting on grass will do to it. That and the rain we've been getting basically guarantees the most of the park used for the occupy movement is a mud pit.
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Well, I'm sure it needs some TLC ... but it hasn't looked that bad when I've walked past, all things considering. I haven't walked through either ... but I seldom do ... doesn't really go anywhere useful most of the time. But I've certainly walked past.
 
typezed said:
I suppose that I'm trying to say that there is no natural party or philosophy for blue collar or working class people. The question was why don't they all support the left when that is in their best economic interest. To which I responded that there is diversity in individual outlooks and experiences and goals in factories and warehouses (those are the places I have experiencing working in), and at this time no one political path is going to meet their needs as a group. In city politics, the social and lifestyle goals pursued by the left on council may not always reflect the desires of many who work industrial or trade or lower-skilled jobs. People may not be opposed to those goals in a way that makes them effective as wedge issues, it's just that they are superfluous to their day to day life. Personally, I'd prefer that people vote for representatives other than the Fords and Mammoliti or provincial or federal Conservatives, I'd prefer that they all supported an urban agenda of bike lanes, streetcars and mixed-use neighbourhoods, but I wouldn't assume that they should out of some old time belief that downtrodden need to band together to overthrow their oppressors with the help of some theorists from the universities. Many in the industrial working class (although probably fewer and fewer as the economy shifts) do just fine, seem to be getting what they want out of life, and may just not have the same priorities as the progressives and activists.
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I agree with you. I'm not saying I (or anyone else) ought to dictate how certain people should vote (well, sometimes I am, but I try to catch myself). But I think your identification of the "priorities" of the industrial working class has been shaped by the wedge-issue politics that have come to dominate our political discourse over the past 20 years. I think the identification of the "left" with urbanism, nouveau hippies, etc. is a function of wedge-issue politics.

Also, I went back and re-read some Spacing issues last night and, in fact, it stands up better than I thought it might as a venue for broad progressive discussion. In my mind, I was thinking subway buttons and street furniture, but the issues I read featured a pretty diverse set of articles.
 
I was delighted to see copies of Spacing in the Occupy library. In fact, Paula Fletcher talked about their library at the Public Library cutbacks meeting last night at the Broadview and Gerrard branch, as an example of how fundamental such services are.

nfitz said:
Unless you have a restaurant facing out over the portable toilets, with an over-priced menu that 99% of the population wouldn't go to ...
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Yeah, that whiny restaurateur milked Occupy for more free publicity than anyone has a right to.
 
nfitz said:
Well, I'm sure it needs some TLC ... but it hasn't looked that bad when I've walked past, all things considering. I haven't walked through either ... but I seldom do ... doesn't really go anywhere useful most of the time. But I've certainly walked past.
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I've been at Occupy on many occasions and, yes, the ground is as muddy as one would expect it to be with so many more citizens using the public space than usual. It is grass, it is durable, it survives drought in the summer and it dies off at this time of year and disappears under snow in the winter when the ground freezes. That's why we have it in parks.
 
The Occupy Toronto movement is turning into an "Evict Rob Ford" movement: Occupy Toronto takes on Ford with rally at City Hall

Union groups have also joined the protests and this could be the spark that motivates those who dislike Ford but didn't think they could do anything to get him out of office. I have a hunch that this could potentially get Ford to leave office early or get the majority of council to force him out or at least ignore his agenda. [EDIT: not this 2000 person protest, but the wider protests that it can ignite]

Early on in this thread, shortly after Ford's election, I predicted that citizens of Toronto would join together in massive protests if he went ahead with his insane anti-Toronto policies, specially when it comes to cuts that affects the entire spectrum of Torontonians. Some members here didn't think it was possible. Well, here we go.
 
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MetroMan said:
The Occupy Toronto movement is turning into an "Evict Rob Ford" movement: Occupy Toronto takes on Ford with rally at City Hall

Union groups have also joined the protests and this could be the spark that motivates those who dislike Ford but didn't think they could do anything to get him out of office. I have a hunch that this could potentially get Ford to leave office early or get the majority of council to force him out or at least ignore his agenda. [EDIT: not this 2000 person protest, but the wider protests that it can ignite]

Early on in this thread, shortly after Ford's election, I predicted that citizens of Toronto would join together in massive protests if he went ahead with his insane anti-Toronto policies, specially when it comes to cuts that affects the entire spectrum of Torontonians. Some members here didn't think it was possible. Well, here we go.
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Now they need to find a way to wind down their occupation and continue highlighting inequality and fighting Ford's ill-conceived cuts through other methods. The longer they stay, the more they risk negative press (a la Vancouver) and risk turning off more and more of the general populace, especially the suburbs.
 
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