Rob Ford's Toronto

[Ak2809]

But only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

Who defines reasonable limits?

It does sometimes reveal things the writer never intended to say ...

Its interpretation can also reveal things about the person reading it. This is OT though.

The problem here is that Ford's anti-gay prejudice is starting to play a negative role in Ford's job performance. This was demonstrated by his failure to appear at a single Pride event.

I disagree. Ford should have been at Pride, but I don't see this as anything other than a minor nuisance. If he comes back and says he will be defunding Pride because its immoral I will change my mind.

I'd think that one should review various decisions he's made. Have any of his funding decisions been at all impacted by his prejudice?

We will have to wait and see how the defunding issue plays out.

And I don't believe in it. That is my right!

Absolutely it is. This is why we're having a discussion instead of bashing each others brains in

Agreed. However if after a decade of public service, one is clearly so prejudiced ... then perhaps it's time to terminate their service with prejudice.

If he does something like my example of defunding pride then absolutely yes, but I don't believe in the merits in removing someone because of their personal beliefs. I really don't like the idea of telling people that their democratically elected leader should be removed because my morals should be the standard.

I think screaming bigot is the best thing we can do for society. The whole world needs to know that such evil prejudice still exists, and must be fought.

At one point in time I would have agreed with you, but as we move towards becoming a more accepting and accomodating society we need to learn to accept all views. The left really needs to rise above this petty nitpicking, and embrace the tolerance that makes up part of its core values.

 

[RC8]

I disagree with both of you.

Instead of screaming 'bigot' there should be campaigns explaining how homosexuality works and explaining that people of the same sex can under certain circumstances be infatuated by one another and so on. Educate the public, and force the leaders to understand the issues they are dealing with.

Ak, we cannot just 'accept' views that are inherently inconsistent and disrespectful to both the truth and a large set of individuals. Allowing the prejudiced ones to keep their views further encourages the victim-mentality that makes enormous groups of LGBTQ people very hateable.

This is how a lot of conversations with gay/feminist/gay activist people go:

-I hate when women wear make up, but to each their own.
-Totally, they look better natural.

-I hate when men wear make up, but to each their own.
-Bigot!

-Airhead girls who just talk about fashion all the time are incredibly annoying.
-I know! Girls should be in college doing something with their lives, or at least pursuing their own dreams.

-Airhead guys who just talk about fashion all the time are incredibly annoying.
-Bigot!

-Fat biker dudes look repulsive to me.
-Yeah, what are they thinking?

-Fat biker girls look repulsive to me.
-Bigot!

It's infuriating! But then again the real blame falls on those who conditioned these people to feel like they are under attack all the time. Neither acceptance or 'bigot-calling' are the answer.

Education is all we need.

 

[Ak2809]

Allowing the prejudiced ones to keep their views further encourages the victim-mentality that makes enormous groups of LGBTQ people very hateable.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

How do you intend to disallow a person's private thoughts?

Making something taboo doesn't stop it. (As gay activists should know)

I agree with you though, education is key.

 

[Torontovibe]

Then we why do we take such comments seriously and simply out the bigots?

The media seems to bend over backwards to avoid the truth of Rob Ford's bigotry ... though the've come a lot closer in the last fortnight of calling a spade a spade.

We live in a world where truth is sometimes hard to find. Our governments and the media lie to us all the time. People are so damned disingenuous, you have to almost question everyone and read between the lines to see through the bull-shit. People will justify their hate and prejudices but in the end, it's still just hate.

 

[RC8]

Ak,

For example, has Ford met ANYONE for actual education on what homosexuality is? I don't think he has. All he knows is what he grew up hearing and what he has made of it throughout the years. If people suspected he had a prejudice for gay people from the beginning, there should have been a line up of academics and activists wanting to book a meeting with him to explain the whole phenomenon to him.

Instead, they brought out posters and t-shirts insulting him and managed to alienate him even further from their little group.

As a biologist and having had plenty of gay/bi/whatever friends my exposure to the subject has been tremendous. But if I was a management college drop-out with a conservative father growing up in etobicoke, god knows where I'd stand. I've talked several (former)homophobic friends into admitting there's nothing ethically 'wrong' about homosexuality - and even though sometimes their previous beliefs splash out every now and then, they can usually control their 'gut-feeling' and do the right thing once they've learned it.

 

[nfitz]

Who defines reasonable limits?

The courts, ultimately. We've got anti-hate laws that restrict free speech, that have been upheld in court.

If he comes back and says he will be defunding Pride because its immoral I will change my mind.

So your giving him a free pass for his previous attempt (attempts? I haven't dug into past votes) ... but it all hinges on whether or not he tries again?

At one point in time I would have agreed with you, but as we move towards becoming a more accepting and accomodating society we need to learn to accept all views. The left really needs to rise above this petty nitpicking, and embrace the tolerance that makes up part of its core values.

Not sure what this has to do with left against right. In the USA, many in the Tea Party have also been pushing same-sex marriage rights.

Instead of screaming 'bigot' there should be campaigns explaining how homosexuality works and explaining that people of the same sex can under certain circumstances be infatuated by one another and so on.

Really ... in this day and age? This information has been out and about for decades. Everyone knows this ... if at this point adults who have grown up in Canada choose to discriminate against people based on sexual preference, it's not ignorance. It's simply because they are evil and flawed prejudiced people. You can't use the ignorance card any more ... we are decades past that. (might be able to accept it's the case for someone in their 80s who grew up in a different world ... or someone fresh off the boat ...)

 

[RC8]

Really ... in this day and age? This information has been out and about for decades. Everyone knows this ... if at this point adults who have grown up in Canada choose to discriminate against people based on sexual preference, it's not ignorance. It's simply because they are evil and flawed prejudiced people. You can't use the ignorance card any more ... we are decades past that. (might be able to accept it's the case for someone in their 80s who grew up in a different world ... or someone fresh off the boat ...)

Nonsense. You are obviously disconnected from the reality of your fellow Torontonians.

Most homosexuals I know here don't even understand the causes and nature of homosexuality. They just vomit tons of anecdotal evidence about how, to quote someone I know, she knows she's been a lesbian since she was in her mother's womb, and so on. It's pathetic.

People here have told me so many times that they know that it is impossible to affect sexual orientation in children. People can be significantly more open or closed to experimentation depending on the environment where they grow up, but NO! this doesn't happen according to the laughable lgbtq at u of t, for example. They also say gender and sex orientation are completely unrelated, but have nothing to back themselves up except evidences of the opposite.

In a city where gay people don't understand homosexuality, I don't expect the likes of Rob Ford to.

 

[taal]

So I couldn't make it, how was the parade, from what I heard it was busier then last time ?

 

[Ak2809]

So your giving him a free pass for his previous attempt (attempts? I haven't dug into past votes) ... but it all hinges on whether or not he tries again?

Ford is the mayor now, and was brought in on a mandate that has nothing to do with any kind of social agenda. Since he now represents myself instead of just those in Etobicoke, I will judge with my vote on what he does now that he is the mayor. I don't approve of statements he has made in the past, however, putting ones foot in ones mouth is not something limited to the likes of Rob Ford.

In a city where gay people don't understand homosexuality, I don't expect the likes of Rob Ford to.

This is really the heart of the issue. Rob Ford is uncomfortable with homosexuals/homosexuality. When you attack him you drive him away. Can you honestly tell me what incentive there was for him to show up at Pride? He would face ridicule, and possibly even have things thrown at him.

I can only hope that Ford has learned something from this whole debacle, and will seek out a better understanding of himself and of homosexuality.

 

[TonyV]

I am pulling away from the homosexuality topic in this post.

I can't help but suspect that Rob Ford has already fatigued, from his time in office. He is lacking ideas, and if he has any of those, he is lacking any effective way of articulating them. This was all laid bare in Ford's recent meeting with the Globe and Mail editorial board. Touchstone issues are graffiti, and a bit of unkempt grass visible from the Gardiner Expressway -- not much else. No talk of grand ambitions for the city. Moreover, the writers managed to convey that Ford was uncomfortable speaking with them. That is what the suburban voters have put into office.

Ford is being taken to task by former mayors and by others in high profile positions, for not supporting a segment of the population that is generally marginalized, and very well he should be taken to task for such a slight. He is not mayor of all the people, by any stretch. The constant criticism to which Ford will now be subjected - on many fronts - is bound to take a toll on him. He won't get a second term.

 

[tkip]

My point was that the term bigot isn't simply just the cherry-picked definition you've presented. If you want Ford to resign because you feel he is a bigot, then you must conceed that anyone with any kind of prejudiced opinions political or social is not fit to hold political office.

We don't know if Rob Ford is a bigot. He may hold prejudiced views, but as long as he keeps them to himself what is the issue? Now, by definition if Rob Ford were to stand up in council and give a lecture about the evils of homosexuality, and proclaim that Pride should be defunded based on his own views then yes you can say he is a bigot.

This is the a good response to the bigot issue. nfitz wants Ford and everyone else with prejudiced views to be kicked out of office. Accept that everyone has some kind of prejudiced views/opinions to some extent so there would be no one left in office. nfitz himself would be kicked out of office for holding intolerant views against those that don't share his views.

And do you stop with city hall? Would you go after bosses, teachers, firemen, nurses, doctors, etc. for holding prejudiced views even if they never expressed them publicly? Where would this stop? Look at that sports cast announcer that lost his job for tweeting that he believes marriage is between men and women.

The difference is whether someone acts on their prejudice. If Ford were actually a bigot and disliked gays and then decided to use his power as a mayor to carry out his agenda, you'd have a point.

And with the exception of Ford skipping Pride, what exactly has he tried to do against the gay community? He also apparently skipped most of the Canada Day celebrations as well. I don't hear people like nfitz accusing Ford of hating Canada or being un-patriotic. People like nfitz seem to overlook this. I think Ford dropped the ball. I don't he's a bigot but rather just uncomfortable.

 

[grey]

The difference is whether someone acts on their prejudice. If Ford were actually a bigot and disliked gays and then decided to use his power as a mayor to carry out his agenda, you'd have a point.

He has. Look up his voting record on HIV/AIDS funding.

 

[GraphicMatt]

I am pulling away from the homosexuality topic in this post.

I can't help but suspect that Rob Ford has already fatigued, from his time in office. He is lacking ideas, and if he has any of those, he is lacking any effective way of articulating them. This was all laid bare in Ford's recent meeting with the Globe and Mail editorial board. Touchstone issues are graffiti, and a bit of unkempt grass visible from the Gardiner Expressway -- not much else. No talk of grand ambitions for the city. Moreover, the writers managed to convey that Ford was uncomfortable speaking with them. That is what the suburban voters have put into office.

Ford is being taken to task by former mayors and by others in high profile positions, for not supporting a segment of the population that is generally marginalized, and very well he should be taken to task for such a slight. He is not mayor of all the people, by any stretch. The constant criticism to which Ford will now be subjected - on many fronts - is bound to take a toll on him. He won't get a second term.

This is a very good point. The notion of 'vision' was such a dirty word during the last election that Ford was elected to office with no significant plans for this city beyond symbolic niceties like decreasing expense budgets and eliminating free food at council meetings.

Aside from the privately-funded Sheppard Subway dream -- which not much can be done on until 2015 anyway -- he has no major plans. No desire to improve transit service, continue revitalization efforts along the waterfront, launch new cultural programs, or anything like that.

 

[typezed]

All that Ford has is his certainty. He doesn't have good looks, clever turns of phrase, charm, astute judgment, careful analysis. All he has is his belief that he is right. Sure, it's the certainty of a backwards high-schooler who just read Ayn Rand, but at this point in time it appealed to a good chunk of our population. He has long been against funding for cultural programmes. And he's sticking to his gut feeling, one-hundred percent, because that is all that he knows how to do. His inability to reach out to others, to broker any compromise, to understand the perspective of anyone who is not himself, to take the least step that might crack his certainty, all that has been on display over the last week shows him to be a limited and immature personality, unfit for any leadership position. You'd hope that responsible councillors would begin to grasp that they are backing someone who doesn't much like people or the city he lives in, but they seem to lack the integrity to do anything but bow to power, look for personal advantage and wage petty battles. All which reinforces this guy's hold.

 

[TonyV]

^ With all of that in mind, typezed, it is fair to say that he will sail right into the "perfect storm" and he'll be toast well before his term is over.

I have already bet on this.