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Roads: Six Points Interchange Reconfiguration (City of Toronto, UC)

The thing I dont understand about this stretch of Etobicoke City Centre (Dundas St in particular) is how we got separated bike lanes between Aukland and the eastern portion of Bloor.

Meanwhile west of Aukland (right where we're seeing new developments with sidewalks and roads being redone), there's absolutely 0 provision (that im aware of) for separated bike lanes and we're seeing the generic bland City of Toronto by-the-books streetscape coming into play. Prime example of hacked up, dysfunctional planning.

^All this can be a moot point if the Dundas BRT that @duffo is alluding to has this in the cards. Thing is, lord knows when we'll ever see that BRT built.
I asked city staff about this and was told that there is a long term intention to continue the bike lanes to the 427 and that they are making provisions for that as the condos go up on dundas. That being said I haven't seen anything official yet.

In the other direction I believe there is a plan to connect the two housing now developments with a multi-use path over or under the tracks at bloor which will help that bottleneck. That was only a note on a slideshow though so also up in the air. Long term it looks like the bloor bike lanes just keep on coming west so eventually will hopefully connect at six points as well.

As far as I know no new southern/northern bike lane plans though.

I feel like a lot of the criticism this is getting is from people who don't know the area. I've been walking through this area regularly for ten years and this is like night and day. Yes there are ways this could improve (the streets are a bit wide) and yes it's not king st (but honestly it can't be out in etobicoke, literally everything is different) but my impression of walking in this area before was "I'm going to die" and my impression walking across the whole thing yesterday was "lovely walking path kinda like a rail path" and that I can't wait to see how it improves when all the development is complete. The shopping areas on dundas near the subway and in islington village used to be on different planets but now they're starting to relate to each other. The number of people I see walking is already way up and there's still nothing there to go to.

This is a strong first step for the area and as long as they keep going I feel like this will be a walkable area people enjoy.
 
I asked city staff about this and was told that there is a long term intention to continue the bike lanes to the 427 and that they are making provisions for that as the condos go up on dundas. That being said I haven't seen anything official yet.

In the other direction I believe there is a plan to connect the two housing now developments with a multi-use path over or under the tracks at bloor which will help that bottleneck. That was only a note on a slideshow though so also up in the air. Long term it looks like the bloor bike lanes just keep on coming west so eventually will hopefully connect at six points as well.

As far as I know no new southern/northern bike lane plans though.
I really hope their talk on the bike lanes on Dundas and the multi-path connection over the rail corridor via Bloor are true. It just seems silly to me that the lanes arent already installed as part of the development already taking place on the south side of Dundas.
 
Metrolinx is currently planning the Dundas BRT which will do exactly that!

I'm sure Dundas BRT will help but from a cycling/pedestrian perspective, will things really change along that stretch? I imagine they'll carve out a sliver of a road lane so cyclists can precariously share the road with vehicles whizzing by at 60 - 80 km/h. I don't cycle and I would certainly love to if given the opportunity. I imagine even the most ardent pro-car, anti-cyclist advocates out there at one point in their lives loved cycling. It's essentially a right of passage and most people's first venture into mobility beyond walking, especially as kids. But most people will not shift their driving habits until a well developed and safe cycling network exists in all municipalities in the GTA. Myself and others simply are not willing to risk our lives sharing the road with drivers. Reversing the status quo requires proper, well-built, dedicated bike lanes to ensure safety.
 
I really hope their talk on the bike lanes on Dundas and the multi-path connection over the rail corridor via Bloor are true. It just seems silly to me that the lanes arent already installed as part of the development already taking place on the south side of Dundas.
Agreed. I think the logic is to keep it from being piecemeal? But it seems like now would be the perfect time, most of the south side is being torn up.
 
Moving a lot of cars and being pedestrian friendly don't have to be opposing goals. Big streets with a lot of traffic can be made to be pedestrian friendly.

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View attachment 366683

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With a lot of trees and nice buildings, a wide road is maybe manageable in an urban context (though still inferior to smaller roads), but it's really, really difficult to make the intersection of two really wide roads feel urban. Even Parisian boulevards fail here.

Six Points has 3 giant intersections, all within 250m of each other, plus the RIRO interchange at Viking/St Albans and Kipling. I just don't see how this will work out well as an urban place.
 
Make it make sense:
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BloorSpeedLimit.png
 
The 40 km/hr zone appears to be driven by the curves of the new Dundas alignment, not by road size. That's the only stretch where a 40 zone is marked.

It's a bit of a sign fail, because (based on a streetview drivethrough) there is not a single speed limit sign westbound on Dundas west of Montgomery Road. (HTA would imply that makes it a 50 zone, but with Dundas being an arterial I could not fault a driver for assuming 60, as Dundas was once upon a time). Eastwards, the last 50 sign is at Wilmar. (Edit: on driving by, I found 50 signs at Aukland and west of Kipling, right before the 40 bit)

The first 40 zones on both the old and new Dundas alignment are west of the old Dunbloor (going west) and east of Kipling (going east).

There is no "begins" attached to any of the 40 signs. I fear the engineer designing the Six Points zones simply didn't care what the conditions were outside of the threshold of their project zone.

Normally a "slow down for curve" sign would be a yellow diamond, not a regulatory speed limit sign. I sincerely doubt that anyone has any intention of enforcing the 40 in that location, there are no good places to run a radar trap.

I am a bit oppositional around overusing speed limit signs, especially when the speed limit drops arbitrarily without good visual warning. There is just too much clutter on roadways to justify a "didn't you see the sign?" argument. I find driving in the US (where lowered local speed limits through small towns are often rigidly enforced, usually to boost municipal coffers) hugely tiring because of the amount of effort needed to watch for abrupt changes in speed limit when my concentration is better spent watching for people or traffic.

The warning beeps from my GPS really helps. Painting the speed limits on the road, as is done in some places, really really helps. And have a good rigourous program to go out and repaint them when they wear. Our road marking maintenance is both pennypinching and downright lazy, with insufficient attention to detail. For all we lament about autocentricity, roads in places like California and Florida are at least maintained and marked with rigour.

And having said all that, I drive Six Points daily, and I don't see much aggressive driving there. The succession of traffic lights keeps people mellow because even if there is a temptation to race one light, the next one is likely red or has bunched cars still blocking the way.

But I agree, it's a disconnect in the design and execution.

- Paul
 
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I honestly think Dundas should be 30km where it changes from East/West to North South (right at St James Gate Pub). One of the most unsafe pedestrian crossings in the city. Motorists are remaining on Dundas from heading North to turning East bound (or West to south) and don't realize that pedestrians crossing the street have the right away on a Green light, even though they have a green light (and 99% of the traffic follows and turns right to continue eastbound onto Dundas from Northbound Dundas).
 
If driving on the road that "feels" like it should be 60 km/h (or worse "feels" like 70 km/h), it should be SIGNED 50 km/h. Even if the HTA says it can be unsigned (50 km/h). Would be better if it was redesigned to have narrower lanes so that it "feels" like a slower speed road.
 
If driving on the road that "feels" like it should be 60 km/h (or worse "feels" like 70 km/h), it should be SIGNED 50 km/h. Even if the HTA says it can be unsigned (50 km/h). Would be better if it was redesigned to have narrower lanes so that it "feels" like a slower speed road.

Dundas is 60 in Mississauga and becomes 50 just east of the East Mall. Was 60 across Etobicoke long ago, must have been changed at some point but I haven’t a memory of when. There is absolutely no change in the road where it goes down to 50…. because it was built for 60. Only east of Six Points does it narrow and gain on street parking, still feels like a major street but speed is controlled by congestion for much of the day. Widens again east of Islington, and that seems to be where drivers “let loose”.

On my drive today, I discovered that there is a 40 sign for eastbound on the “old” part of Dundas, around the corner after one makes the right turn to resume the original street. I couldn’t figure out how far it applies because again, the next 50 sign is a very long ways east.

I agree that there should be frequent signage on all streets and nothing left to assumptions or HTA default. Too often I turn onto a street, wonder what speed I should be going, go a long ways on guessswork but never see a sign. Signs are helpful, just no guarantee they will be spotted.

- Paul
 
Where do people think this is!? Suburban toronto forever. People don't walk and will never walk in this area. Ambitious desire is putting it politely.
 
Where do people think this is!? Suburban toronto forever. People don't walk and will never walk in this area. Ambitious desire is putting it politely.
When they fill all the ground around Six Points with high-rise, people will be walking (not driving) to Kipling Station.

1649864265812.png


From link. Just wait ten to twenty years.
 
Where do people think this is!? Suburban toronto forever. People don't walk and will never walk in this area. Ambitious desire is putting it politely.

When they fill all the ground around Six Points with high-rise, people will be walking (not driving) to Kipling Station.

View attachment 392569

From link. Just wait ten to twenty years.

Adding to what @W. K. Lis stated, here is the proposed plan by the Housing Now initiative for the different blocks in this redevelopment:

1649864859323.png
 

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