Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[imerk]

If we are going to build a new highway, which will definitely become clogged and need endless expansion, then is there really a point in building it at all? That's why I think if we built the 413 it should be tolled.

The point of the new highway is to carry a significant number of additional trips though the region, both existing latent demand and the demand growth expected with the further development of the City. Not to mention the increasing need for infrastructure for goods and services movement throughout the GTA. While it would be great to support alternative modes, and we absolutely must, the need for accommodating increasing vehicular trips should not be ignored.

I would argue the opposite, if the new highway wouldn't be used there would be no point building it. The fact that it will become eventually clogged indicates a need for the connection and capacity. Perhaps over time, Eglinton LRT and the Ontario Line will become at capacity and clogged, is that not indicative of a successful project?

 

[Undead]

I think a busy transit line is much more desirable than a busy highway, regardless how successful the latter might be.

 

[Translude15]

I think a busy transit line is much more desirable than a busy highway, regardless how successful the latter might be.

Busy transit lines where demand warrants it, absolutely. Multiple DRL's and LRT's through downtown, expansive GO RER, a GO Midtown corridor, a GO spur to Bolton and a full-fledged 407 transitway are all desirable projects. Eventually a transitway can traverse the 413 route but initially, a transit corridor from Milton-Georgetown-Bolton is not as high on the priority list. The movement of goods and cargo through that route certainly is though.

 

[afransen]

The idea is that in the future all of these transitways could be converted to rail if the demand raises to the point where something like that would be justified, similar to what Ottawa did but hopefully with better and more sensible rolling stock.

This is actually a smart option because what it means is instead of having a rail line that follows a specific path, you can have multiple different services that enter and leave the transitway at various points and use whatever section they need. Say for instance you want to run a bus service from RHC to Waterloo. You can have a GO bus that follows the transitway all the way to the 407/401 interchange then leaves and goes for Kitchener. With rail, what you would have to do is get on a train to say Lisgar GO, then transfer onto a GO bus that continues onto Waterloo.

Because you want your rail TOD snuggled up next to a roaring highway. It is nonsense on stilts.

 

[ARG1]

Because you want your rail TOD snuggled up next to a roaring highway. It is nonsense on stilts.

1) Most of it is built within the Hydro Corridor, meaning that you can't really do much TOD with it anyway. As such most of the connections are expected to be done by local transport, and the purpose of the line is meant more for longer distance commutes (Not to mention that as seen with the Gardiner and in many places in other cities like Tokyo, development and highways aren't exactly mutually exclusive).
2) Its not "snuggled" up next to a roaring highway. If you wish you can take a look at the EA Design Plates yourself, but in short, many of the more important stations are quite significantly offset from the Highway. While the stations are "close" to the highway, its no LA J line or Spadina Subway, and there is usually some distance in place, especially at stations like Lisgar and Unionville.

Here's Hurontario Station as an example:

 

[Deadpool X]

This government and other successors should really focus on enhancing the GTA's existing highway network by gradually buying out the lease agreements for the 407 starting in the west end.

407 ETR was last pegged at $32 billion. With that money, we could have all GO lines electrified, have new EMU trains and signaling and may be even build the missing link. I doubt Province will ever have money or will to buy 407's stake.

It's a 99 year long lease expiring in 2098. We would have long abandoned flying cars by then and we would be teleporting instead.

 

[Deadpool X]

I am all for Province buying 407's stake at $32 billion as long as they toll all of the GTA highways at a very reasonable rate - let's say one-fifth of 407's rate in peak hours and one-tenth in off peak hours. And of course, 407's new rates should match with rest of the system. Trucks may travel toll free.

By doing that, province will not lose any money. They can get a $32 billion loan and service the payments through the toll. It's possible they will have some amount left over after this which they can use for transit or maintaining the highways so that more taxpayer dollars could be channeled for transit.

Needless to say voters aren't going to like it but we can dream at least!

 

[innsertnamehere]

I am all for Province buying 407's stake at $32 billion as long as they toll all of the GTA highways at a very reasonable rate - let's say one-fifth of 407's rate in peak hours and one-tenth in off peak hours. And of course, 407's new rates should match with rest of the system. Trucks may travel toll free.

By doing that, province will not lose any money. They can get a $32 billion loan and service the payments through the toll. It's possible they will have some amount left over after this which they can use for transit or maintaining the highways so that more taxpayer dollars could be channeled for transit.

Needless to say voters aren't going to like it but we can dream at least!

Lol I'm sure you have created a detailed pro-forma to back these claims up??

You really think that a toll of $0.02-$0.10/km will finance a $32 billion loan? The $0.30/km tolls on the 407 east aren't expected to finance even half of a $4 billion loan to build that highway!

And congrats, by setting the toll so low, all you have done is make not one but two congested highways across the city.

 

[Fritter]

And congrats, by setting the toll so low, all you have done is make not one but two congested highways across the city.

This is one thing that seems to escape everyone who complains about the high tolls on the 407. The tolls are set to keep traffic volumes low and lets the Highway operate at posted speed for most of the time. Significantly lowering the toll rate will dramatically raise traffic volumes, then you will be sitting on the 407 in a traffic jam wondering why you're paying for the privilege of sitting in traffic. Even with the high tolls, the Highway is not ghost town empty, tens of thousands of drivers are willing to pay at those price points.

 

[afransen]

I am all for Province buying 407's stake at $32 billion as long as they toll all of the GTA highways at a very reasonable rate - let's say one-fifth of 407's rate in peak hours and one-tenth in off peak hours. And of course, 407's new rates should match with rest of the system. Trucks may travel toll free.

By doing that, province will not lose any money. They can get a $32 billion loan and service the payments through the toll. It's possible they will have some amount left over after this which they can use for transit or maintaining the highways so that more taxpayer dollars could be channeled for transit.

Needless to say voters aren't going to like it but we can dream at least!

The tolls should be sufficient to keep highways moving. I don't think cutting the 407 tolls so that it is gridlocked is a good idea.

 

[whydidimakethis]

The tolls should be sufficient to keep highways moving. I don't think cutting the 407 tolls so that it is gridlocked is a good idea.

I would argue the opposite, if the new highway wouldn't be used there would be no point building it. The fact that it will become eventually clogged indicates a need for the connection and capacity.

So then wouldn't a moving but tolled 413 be more desirable? Isn't the whole pitch of the 413 is that it will save a lot of time?

 

[imerk]

So then wouldn't a moving but tolled 413 be more desirable? Isn't the whole pitch of the 413 is that it will save a lot of time?

I'm not generally opposed to moderate tolls throughout highways. 407 ETR tolls are kind of insane, I avoid it at all costs.

 

[afransen]

So then wouldn't a moving but tolled 413 be more desirable? Isn't the whole pitch of the 413 is that it will save a lot of time?

I'm not opposed to 413 in principle.

 

[Deadpool X]

Lol I'm sure you have created a detailed pro-forma to back these claims up??

You really think that a toll of $0.02-$0.10/km will finance a $32 billion loan? The $0.30/km tolls on the 407 east aren't expected to finance even half of a $4 billion loan to build that highway!

And congrats, by setting the toll so low, all you have done is make not one but two congested highways across the city.

All of GTA's highways combined should be around 5 times of 407 ETR's length. So if you cut the toll by 5 times and increase the length of tolled network by 5 times, you get the same result.

Your example of 30 cents/km toll not being able to finance the highway doesn't make sense here. They are not charging toll on 401 or 404 to finance 407 which I am proposing to. If 100 km of tolled network is financing construction cost of 20 km of highway, then the toll can be one-fifth of the break even number per km.

Instead of nit-picking on the toll rates, you could argue about the merits of the suggestion.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I'm not generally opposed to moderate tolls throughout highways. 407 ETR tolls are kind of insane, I avoid it at all costs.

They actually aren't that bad now. I think as part of the deal with the province for the extension and the additional toll highways being added the price structure was changed. Plus also the Canada pension plan is apparently a share holder in it now.