Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[innsertnamehere]

A little overambitious.

That said, boston is often a poor comparison to these projects as the Big dig was extremely complex with several underground interchanges, extensive bridge structures, and a tunnel under the harbour, all while maintaining the existing highway.

This case would likely be a large, single bore tunnel with a few interchanges along the way. Expensive for sure, but not nearly as complex as the Big Dig.

I would argue that the scale of this thing is a little over the top, but a scaled back plan to, say, connect the 400 with downtown might be more realistic.

I've often thought that an underground extension of the Allen from Eglinton to a connection at University avenue around Queens park (room for the exits) could work well. University has the capacity to handle the traffic being spit out, and it would only be around 6km long, while saving huge amounts of travel times.

 

[Sandpit]

I would support extending the 400 to meet up with the Gardiner though. We could even remove Allen Road in exchange. Of course, the problem with this is that the interchange would be somewhere near High Park...

 

[Neutrino]

Let's build a one stop subway extension from the 407 to downtown with a 60,000 space garage attached to the northern terminal. I kid...

 

[Leo_Chan]

I would support extending the 400 to meet up with the Gardiner though. We could even remove Allen Road in exchange. Of course, the problem with this is that the interchange would be somewhere near High Park...

With Allen Road removed, what will go in its place? It's a great corridor to develop, with the subway there, but there are no side streets to build up against.
Moving the subway to under Dufferin or Bathurst would be too expensive, so one idea would be to bury the subway under (or build it above) a single 4-6 lane street, then develop along that street.
Or just remove Allen Road and make it a park with a railway cutting through it

 

[44 North]

Personally I think this is a wonderful plan. Just look at the Gardiner, DVP and Black Creek Drive, they are a disaster and all that vehicular traffic will not disappear no matter how much public transit we build (which we should also be doing). This city is choking on gridlock.

While induced demand is definitely a thing, the projected future population of the GTA needs to get around somehow, and the more viable options they have, which obviously include RER, RL, Crosstown, etc, the better.

Furthermore, the toll business model has been proven to work. One only needs to look at the 407 ETR, a highway that works. Road pricing on this tunnel will regulate the traffic levels just as it does on the 407 ETR.

I just don't get how the interchanges would fit in...we're kinda running low on free space. And with modern safety measures I'm thinking this thing would require excessively wide lanes, a full-size shoulder lane for emergency services/breakdowns, very long ramps that ease elevation changes as minimally as possible, and ultra-large arcs for ramp curves. The days of narrow Hot Wheels-style ramps like we have on the DVP and Gardiner - although beneficial and the right solution for expwys in an urban environment - seem like they don't exist anymore. It's a one-size fits all for new highways regardless of where they're built. Maybe I'm wrong tho.

 

[ShonTron]

I would support extending the 400 to meet up with the Gardiner though. We could even remove Allen Road in exchange. Of course, the problem with this is that the interchange would be somewhere near High Park...

The original plan called for a Highway 400 extension south to the Gardiner, connecting just west of Fort York - this is partially why the Gardiner is so high around there - it would have permitted slip ramps to connect. The 400 Extension would have plowed through the Christie Pits area and Little Italy, connecting with the Richview Expressway (now Eglinton Avenue through Etobicoke) and the Crosstown Expressway across to the DVP.

 

[TOareaFan]

The original plan called for a Highway 400 extension south to the Gardiner, connecting just west of Fort York - this is partially why the Gardiner is so high around there - it would have permitted slip ramps to connect. The 400 Extension would have plowed through the Christie Pits area and Little Italy, connecting with the Richview Expressway (now Eglinton Avenue through Etobicoke) and the Crosstown Expressway across to the DVP.

View attachment 130851

phew.....dodged that bullet! also the one where the only commuter rail was along Lakeshore!

 

[innsertnamehere]

I just don't get how the interchanges would fit in...we're kinda running low on free space. And with modern safety measures I'm thinking this thing would require excessively wide lanes, a full-size shoulder lane for emergency services/breakdowns, very long ramps that ease elevation changes as minimally as possible, and ultra-large arcs for ramp curves. The days of narrow Hot Wheels-style ramps like we have on the DVP and Gardiner - although beneficial and the right solution for expwys in an urban environment - seem like they don't exist anymore. It's a one-size fits all for new highways regardless of where they're built. Maybe I'm wrong tho.

The gardiner rebuild is going to have some very tight ramps between it and the DVP. You are right though, shoulders and improved geometry are preferred where possible. It's not to say that you cannot construct a highway without them in a tight spot though.

 

[gweed123]

Agree - private investors and no public money - fill yer boots. I recall reading the Billions that Boston spent on its 'big dig' and I don't know if its distances compare to this proposal.

This makes the Big Dig look like the snow fort tunnels I dug as a kid. If this plan comes in at under $60 billion, I'd be shocked.

 

[Johnny Au]

This makes the Big Dig look like the snow fort tunnels I dug as a kid. If this plan comes in at under $60 billion, I'd be shocked.

The underground Toronto expressway network would easily be among the most expensive transportation infrastructure megaprojects in the world.

Even the Hyperloop is more financially sound than this.

 

[goleafsgo_chris]

This makes the Big Dig look like the snow fort tunnels I dug as a kid. If this plan comes in at under $60 billion, I'd be shocked.

Dont get me wrong, this project will never happen.

BUT, if you charged for tolling you could make money back fairly quickly.

DVP has 2 million cars per day currently. Say you charged 5$/car. At 10mil$/day, thats 3.6billion/year. And thats if you charged a flat fee, I bet they would charge by km, and would charge a LOT more. If the 407 charges 35 cents a km, a new underground highway downtown could charge waaaay more, I bet people would pay 15$ to avoid dvp traffic.

I get that its all irrelevant because this will never happen, but in general building things then tolling them may not be as much of a waste of money as we think.

 

[darth_freeman]

The road through Scarborough makes sense to relieve the DVP (like a relief line, get it?), the rest are just fantasy. But we know how much opposition there is to actually giving Scarborough good transportation options.

 

[Neutrino]

Dont get me wrong, this project will never happen.

BUT, if you charged for tolling you could make money back fairly quickly.

DVP has 2 million cars per day currently. Say you charged 5$/car. At 10mil$/day, thats 3.6billion/year. And thats if you charged a flat fee, I bet they would charge by km, and would charge a LOT more. If the 407 charges 35 cents a km, a new underground highway downtown could charge waaaay more, I bet people would pay 15$ to avoid dvp traffic.

I get that its all irrelevant because this will never happen, but in general building things then tolling them may not be as much of a waste of money as we think.

2 million a day? Sounds waaay over stated. Do you have a source for that? I'd put it at 150 thousand, 200 tops.

 

[jcam]

2 million a day? Sounds waaay over stated. Do you have a source for that? I'd put it at 150 thousand, 200 tops.

Wikipedia says its capacity is 60,000 per day, but it regularly hits 100,000/day. So that's $130M/year for weekdays, and assume maybe half traffic on weekends adds another $26M,....so all in about $160M per year in tolls. That's my calcs...looks like the City report on it has more info: https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2015/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-83671.pdf

 

[pstogios]

Wikipedia says its capacity is 60,000 per day, but it regularly hits 100,000/day. So that's $130M/year for weekdays, and assume maybe half traffic on weekends adds another $26M,....so all in about $160M per year in tolls. That's my calcs...looks like the City report on it has more info: https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2015/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-83671.pdf

Even at the conservative estimate of $160M per year (there is potential to earn much more if the toll is charged per km), this would allow financing of a $4B project over 25 years. This puts at least part is this plan into the territory of being possible to build from a financial perspective.