Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[Mulder]

Agreed; but I'm not sure what could be done here. It is a really tight area. It is a nightmare trying to get over 2-3 lanes there making sure you are out of "Exit only lane" territory. This is my "coming home from Canada's Wonderland" route and I often just take 407 and eat the cost to avoid this interchange!

You really only have to move over 1 lane once you hit the 401. The issue with re-configuring anything to do with that interchange is land, and the lack of it MTO has. Many Interchanges within GTA especially on the 401 were seemly just modified to suite traffic trends and not a full reconfigure to suite long term traffic needs.

The process you actually are referring to is weaving, I've never had to design to accommodate it, i'll look into the guidelines.

There is a much, much worse example of this going getting on the 401 at Warden, going eastbound. The driver has to merge into the 401 and go over an extra lane to avoid getting off at Kennedy (total of 2 lane changes). At the same time watching out for those who are leaving the express to lanes to get off at Kennedy. (3-4 lanes over) MTO should move that transfer to be parallel with Kennedy, in theory would help traffic flow in the area to prevent that weaving.

 

[arcum]

Agreed; but I'm not sure what could be done here. It is a really tight area. It is a nightmare trying to get over 2-3 lanes there making sure you are out of "Exit only lane" territory. This is my "coming home from Canada's Wonderland" route and I often just take 407 and eat the cost to avoid this interchange!

If you stay on the left lane of the 2-lane ramp from 400 to 401W, then you don't have to move over at all, until just before the 409 exit (about 2km). This was recently improved in 2012 or so from where the left lane would exit to Weston. Most drivers must still think it is the original configuration as they desperately change lanes as soon as they enter 401WB.

 

[arcum]

There is a much, much worse example of this going getting on the 401 at Warden, going eastbound. The driver has to merge into the 401 and go over an extra lane to avoid getting off at Kennedy (total of 2 lane changes). At the same time watching out for those who are leaving the express to lanes to get off at Kennedy. (3-4 lanes over) MTO should move that transfer to be parallel with Kennedy, in theory would help traffic flow in the area to prevent that weaving.

That looks like one of the worst weaves in the GTA for sure. I'm not aware of any plans to improve it, but one thing that could be done is to sign Kennedy for the previous transfer (just west of Leslie St.).

 

[Markster]

There is a much, much worse example of this going getting on the 401 at Warden, going eastbound. The driver has to merge into the 401 and go over an extra lane to avoid getting off at Kennedy (total of 2 lane changes). At the same time watching out for those who are leaving the express to lanes to get off at Kennedy. (3-4 lanes over) MTO should move that transfer to be parallel with Kennedy, in theory would help traffic flow in the area to prevent that weaving.

If I recall correctly, they were rehabbing the medians and barriers through there about 10 years ago. Things are generally still in good shape, so it would be some time before such a move could be considered.

I always consider it a little harrowing when I'm doing that Express->Kennedy maneuver. Thankfully, with where I'm usually going, it's not the worst thing to overshoot and take Progress, so I can take it easy.

 

[Kitsune]

An article popped up regarding the status of highway 69 being 400-inized... http://www.thesudburystar.com/2015/01/03/sudbury-accent-highway-69-by-2017-seems-unlikely

A few key Summary points:

Government still targets the 2017 date for completion (that isnt going to happen)
It will cost 1 billion for the remaining section of 82km (this likely has to do with the french river crossing and also relocation of the cn mainline in one area)
And they are once again having Negotiation issues with 3 different First Nation tribes. To me, this has a lot of similarity to the Wahta tribe negotiations, and that took many many years to be done.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I read somewhere that one of the chiefs was hoping for an announcement in the spring, the negotiations have been ongoing for a while already. Mind you that is only one of the 3 native lands that the highway will run through..

 

[salsa]

Another billion dollars for a rural highway, but couldn't afford to continue the Northlander Railway.

 

[innsertnamehere]

To be fair the Northlander was costing something absurd like $400 per trip in subsidies.. not really fair to compare. This is a billion dollar project sure, but it will provide far more benefits to northern communities than the essentially 0 benefits that the Northlander provided.

 

[TOareaFan]

To be fair the Northlander was costing something absurd like $400 per trip in subsidies.. not really fair to compare. This is a billion dollar project sure, but it will provide far more benefits to northern communities than the essentially 0 benefits that the Northlander provided.

I think the point/question is.....would the north have got some benefits out of Northlander if, instead of shutting it down, they had invested $1B or half of that or even $250m?

 

[MrsNesbitt]

I think the point/question is.....would the north have got some benefits out of Northlander if, instead of shutting it down, they had invested $1B or half of that or even $250m?

Agreed. The Northlander's failings were not a problem inherent in the service so much as the underinvestment into it. Upgrading the track, rolling stock etc. and getting proper (read: usable) rail service to northern population centres could have a great benefit.

But as always, in Ontario it's the MTO that gets the lion's share of the funding and we end up with highways instead.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The main benefit of this highway is shipping anyway, not passenger travel. The goal is to increase economic activity in the north, and office jobs that come from rail improvements aren't exactly the type that would thrive up there.

Besides this is the Trans Canada and sort of needs the upgrade anyway.

Nobody would argue for rail improvements to Fort Mac, so why are we arguing for them here? The situations are very similar, Sudbury is a resource town.

 

[BMO]

To be fair the Northlander was costing something absurd like $400 per trip in subsidies.. not really fair to compare. This is a billion dollar project sure, but it will provide far more benefits to northern communities than the essentially 0 benefits that the Northlander provided.

I worked in Cochrane in late summer this year, and spoke to a few of the Northlander employees and the majority of the trips it makes are primarily subsidized as they transport food and necessities to many remote locations in Ontario. That, in conjunction with the cost of repairing a set of tracks the seldom gets used by any other service made it a fairly big loser.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The Northlander freight division is still active, correct? That one might make a bit more sense, but even then likely not a whole lot.

 

[ShonTron]

Getting off topic, but to clarify:

Ontario Northland still exists, operating a bus system and a railway.

The only service cut in 2012 was the Northlander, the Toronto-Cochrane passenger train. It ran on track owned by CN south of North Bay, on its own tracks north of there. (Prior to 1990, there were two daily trains, one partially run by VIA; the second train went to Timmins) The Polar Bear Express, which is a passenger train (with some freight carried, such as personal vehicles, post, and food) also still operates. There are freight services as well from North Bay to the mines near Timmins, to the remaining paper and pulp mills in the region, and to Moosonee.

The $400 per passenger figure was probably an over-estimation; tickets to ride the Northlander were never cheap.

 

[MisterF]

The main benefit of this highway is shipping anyway, not passenger travel. The goal is to increase economic activity in the north, and office jobs that come from rail improvements aren't exactly the type that would thrive up there.

Besides this is the Trans Canada and sort of needs the upgrade anyway.

Nobody would argue for rail improvements to Fort Mac, so why are we arguing for them here? The situations are very similar, Sudbury is a resource town.

If an investment approaching that going into Hwy 69 (or the Hwy 11 widening for that matter, another billion dollar project) had gone into ONR, it would have benefitted freight as well. It is a freight railway after all. Not sure why you think that freight rail improvements primarily benefit office jobs.

The fact that it's the Trans-Canada doesn't mean it has to be a 4 lane divided highway.

As for Fort MacMurray, a comparable city in a country like Russia or Australia would have rail improvements instead of a 4 lane highway. So it's not as farfetched as you think. There's no reason that transportation to a remote resource town has to be car based.

But it's not a very good comparison since there's never been any passenger rail to Fort Mac that I'm aware of. In the case of Sudbury or North Bay there's been (was) passenger rail for decades. Instead of improving existing infrastructure we built a whole new, inherently less reliable infrastructure while letting the old one fall apart. Kind of wasteful when you think about it.