Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[urbancog]

I find in Ontario that there's a "in-practice speed limit" - the speed you can drive without being stopped by the OPP that's higher than the posted limits. This seems to be 120 km/h on a 100-limit 3-lane 400-series and 110 km/h on 2-lane 400-series highways. Not sure what the in-practice limit is on a highway with 110 posted limits?

Whereas my experiences in the UK, 75 mph on a 70-limit motorway will get you stopped and folks are driving 26-31 on a 30-limit road to avoid a speed-camera ticket.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Yes, Ontario (and North America as a whole) "permits" speeding a lot more than other jurisdictions. I think a bit part of this is the ridiculously conservative speed limits posted everywhere however. Rural roads with 50-60km/h limits, freeways with 70-100km/h limits - elsewhere globally these are all significantly higher and closer to the speed for which people actually want to travel on the road, so they have higher adherence rates. It's not unusual to see a speed limit which is 50+km/h below the design speed of the road it is assigned to. It's insane, really.

Most of the time when you increase a speed limit the median travel speed barely changes (and vice-versa) without heavy enforcement as people simply do the speed which feels safe on the road.

The 110 limit freeways in Ontario haven't seen huge changes in speed behavior, from my experience. Vehicle speeds generally still range from 100-130 depending on the vehicle. Maybe the middle of the pack average speed has increased marginally, but there are still tons of people doing 100-110 on the QEW out to Niagara even in clear traffic.

 

[Steve X]

I find in Ontario that there's a "in-practice speed limit" - the speed you can drive without being stopped by the OPP that's higher than the posted limits. This seems to be 120 km/h on a 100-limit 3-lane 400-series and 110 km/h on 2-lane 400-series highways. Not sure what the in-practice limit is on a highway with 110 posted limits?

Whereas my experiences in the UK, 75 mph on a 70-limit motorway will get you stopped and folks are driving 26-31 on a 30-limit road to avoid a speed-camera ticket.

You can pretty much get away from 10 km/h above whatever speed limit posted in Ontario. The cops won't spend their time writing you up with a high chance it'll be tossed in court. Just don't do the same with the speed cameras. Those machines have all the time in the world.

Speed bumps work way better than cops on 30 km/h roads.

 

[2323]

I find in Ontario that there's a "in-practice speed limit" - the speed you can drive without being stopped by the OPP that's higher than the posted limits. This seems to be 120 km/h on a 100-limit 3-lane 400-series and 110 km/h on 2-lane 400-series highways. Not sure what the in-practice limit is on a highway with 110 posted limits?

Whereas my experiences in the UK, 75 mph on a 70-limit motorway will get you stopped and folks are driving 26-31 on a 30-limit road to avoid a speed-camera ticket.

On the 417 at least, I find that you can cruise comfortably at 125 without much worry. As for 2 lane 400 series highways, the tolerance is definitely above 110. I cruise at 118 regularly and often still have to speed up to keep with traffic when I pass trucks.

 

[turbanplanner]

On the 417 at least, I find that you can cruise comfortably at 125-127 without much worry. As for 2 lane 400 series highways, the tolerance is definitely above 110. I cruise at 118 regularly and often still have to speed up to keep with traffic when I pass trucks.

It's so scary driving in the 80 construction section on the 400, considering the flow of traffic is 40 over (120)

 

[innsertnamehere]

I see stunt drivers insanely often in the 80-limit part of the 400 who are often basically just going the speed of traffic.

 

[Haljackey]

As limits increase, the amount over you speed both numerically and percentage wise drops. People do 30 over in 100km/h sections because 100 just feels too damm slow. If you raised that to say 120, far far fewer drivers are going to do 30 over because 120 feels more like the right speed. Fuel economy will start to really tank over 130 anyway.

Generally I see this variance in SW Ontario. Say 85th percentile rules on clear stretches on a nice day.

Speed Limit	Typical Driver speed	% over limit
80	105	31.3%
90	110	22.2%
100	120	20%
110	125	13.7%
120 (in theory)	130	8.3%
130 (in theory)	140	7.7%
140 (in theory)	145	3.6%

If countries like Poland can post 140 limits on some of their freeways, so can we.
-If we can get to at least 120, then we cut down the % over limit to single digits.

 

[KevinT]

I find in Ontario that there's a "in-practice speed limit" - the speed you can drive without being stopped by the OPP that's higher than the posted limits. This seems to be 120 km/h on a 100-limit 3-lane 400-series and 110 km/h on 2-lane 400-series highways. Not sure what the in-practice limit is on a highway with 110 posted limits?

Whereas my experiences in the UK, 75 mph on a 70-limit motorway will get you stopped and folks are driving 26-31 on a 30-limit road to avoid a speed-camera ticket.

"Do you know how fast you were going?"
"123."
"And why were you going that fast?"
"Because I didn't think you'd stop me until 125."

 

[afransen]

Yes, Ontario (and North America as a whole) "permits" speeding a lot more than other jurisdictions. I think a bit part of this is the ridiculously conservative speed limits posted everywhere however. Rural roads with 50-60km/h limits, freeways with 70-100km/h limits - elsewhere globally these are all significantly higher and closer to the speed for which people actually want to travel on the road, so they have higher adherence rates. It's not unusual to see a speed limit which is 50+km/h below the design speed of the road it is assigned to. It's insane, really.

Most of the time when you increase a speed limit the median travel speed barely changes (and vice-versa) without heavy enforcement as people simply do the speed which feels safe on the road.

The 110 limit freeways in Ontario haven't seen huge changes in speed behavior, from my experience. Vehicle speeds generally still range from 100-130 depending on the vehicle. Maybe the middle of the pack average speed has increased marginally, but there are still tons of people doing 100-110 on the QEW out to Niagara even in clear traffic.

I had family from the Netherlands in Canada last summer. They did a driving tour of Ontario and Quebec up to Quebec City. They asked us over whatsapp "Is the speed limit not 100?"

We had to explain that in Ontario, 100 means 120, and just go with the flow of traffic.

 

[lenaitch]

One of the problems I find with high speeds (posted or not) is the differentials, particularly where there is significant truck volume. I find this most noticeable in 4-lane sections of Hwy 401. Trucks loose momentum on long grades, other trucks trying - very slowly - to overtake them, which jams up everything. Even in 6-lane areas, this leaves Lane 1 for the higher speed traffic, but the real flyers get jammed up by those only willing to do closer to the limit.

Do European highways have similar truck volumes?

Once tourist season comes, most motor homes and vehicles towing trailers won't be taking advantage of the higher limits.

Maybe if we had better driver training, cars and transports, things would go better. Some people simply don't have either the skills or confidence to be at those speeds.

 

[ericmacm]

Some updates on London area HWY 401 construction:

• The work area for reconstruction around Highbury Avenue has been expanded all the way to Old Victoria Road, the eastern terminus of the project. Some soil is being dug out of the existing Highbury Road interchange, but I suspect this is to create room to store more construction debris, which has slowly been piling up by the interchange.
• The bridge at the Dorchester Road interchange is gone. There is lots of grading happening on either side of the highway, and sheet pile is being installed in the median in advance of the concrete pour for the bridge piers.
• Work has started on more highway barrier rehab/road resurfacing between London and Ingersoll in many different sections.

I have not gotten a chance to see if anything has changed with the Colonel Talbot Road interchange project yet. I suspect that once all of these projects wrap up, we will see the 110 km/h speed limit upgrade applied to the section between London and Kitchener.

 

[turbanplanner]

One of the problems I find with high speeds (posted or not) is the differentials, particularly where there is significant truck volume. I find this most noticeable in 4-lane sections of Hwy 401. Trucks loose momentum on long grades, other trucks trying - very slowly - to overtake them, which jams up everything. Even in 6-lane areas, this leaves Lane 1 for the higher speed traffic, but the real flyers get jammed up by those only willing to do closer to the limit.

Do European highways have similar truck volumes?

Once tourist season comes, most motor homes and vehicles towing trailers won't be taking advantage of the higher limits.

Maybe if we had better driver training, cars and transports, things would go better. Some people simply don't have either the skills or confidence to be at those speeds.

Trucks are often limited to 80 so they don't lose as much speed as the engines are a bit over powered, I can't speak for the volume as it depends where you are. Even here AB has a lot less trucking.

 

[lenaitch]

Trucks are often limited to 80 so they don't lose as much speed as the engines are a bit over powered, I can't speak for the volume as it depends where you are. Even here AB has a lot less trucking.

Perhaps some companies have that as policy but, legislatively in Ontario, Quebec and soon-to-be-BC, they are limited to 105.

It's difficult to visually show volume, but this is a decent indicator (401 near Thamesford):

 

[2323]

With the expansion of the 110 zones, I think there are some potential pilot 120 zones we might be able to reasonably see soon:

Most likely:

400/69 north of Barrie- very low traffic volumes, gives a boost to long distance traffic
417 west of Ottawa- also very low traffic volumes

Somewhat likely:

416- it's empty most of the time
407E/418- self explanatory

 

[Haljackey]

Well at least a few stretches are 110 now.