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Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

ericmacm

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I don't know when this was last updated (I didn't notice it before), but the Ontario Southern Highways Program list shows that 2024-2025 is planned to be the start of construction of the new Highway 7 Grand River Bridges. The actual highway itself doesn't have a date yet, but I can't imagine it would be too long afterward.
 

nfitz

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I don't know when this was last updated (I didn't notice it before), but the Ontario Southern Highways Program list shows that 2024-2025 is planned to be the start of construction of the new Highway 7 Grand River Bridges. The actual highway itself doesn't have a date yet, but I can't imagine it would be too long afterward.
One would think - on the other hand many thought it would get going after they build the interchange and ramps to it, in Kitchener in the 1960s - including the extra-wide section of the Conestoga Expressway to handle the traffic flowing off it.
 

Haljackey

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I don't know when this was last updated (I didn't notice it before), but the Ontario Southern Highways Program list shows that 2024-2025 is planned to be the start of construction of the new Highway 7 Grand River Bridges. The actual highway itself doesn't have a date yet, but I can't imagine it would be too long afterward.

Geesh the Highway 7 freeway from K-W to Guelph just seems to get delayed further and further. Douggie now has more political pressure to build the 413 now so I would assume this highway will once again be on the backburner. Doesn't help when Kitchener Centre, Waterloo and Guelph ridings didn't elect any PC MPPs. These ridings may be ignored more by the new PC government.
 

KevinT

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Geesh the Highway 7 freeway from K-W to Guelph just seems to get delayed further and further. Douggie now has more political pressure to build the 413 now so I would assume this highway will once again be on the backburner. Doesn't help when Kitchener Centre, Waterloo and Guelph ridings didn't elect any PC MPPs. These ridings may be ignored more by the new PC government.

Which is particularly vicious because his prioritization of the 413 over the 7 is probably one of the things that cost him votes in those ridings.
 

innsertnamehere

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Ford made a campaign stop in Kitchener or Guelph to talk about 7 New didn't he? The 413 was the media darling of the election because of how polarizing of an issue it is compared to 7 which has tri-party support.. but Ford's big thing was "build build build" and I think that intends to show that the focus is on more than one project at once.

7 has long been dragged along and they clearly aren't pushing it forward ASAP like they are the Bradford Bypass, but it's still chugging along. I suspect by the next election cycle this will finally actually be under construction.
 

Morriston1986

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I was actually shocked how fast and hard they have pushed the 413 in comparison to the HWY 6 bypass/re-alignment in Guelph and the new alignment of HWY 7 , which have been planned, with approved EA's for years and cost significantly less. While the 413 project is through very sensitive land and will come with a massive price tag to save little time
 

innsertnamehere

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I was actually shocked how fast and hard they have pushed the 413 in comparison to the HWY 6 bypass/re-alignment in Guelph and the new alignment of HWY 7 , which have been planned, with approved EA's for years and cost significantly less. While the 413 project is through very sensitive land and will come with a massive price tag to save little time
The 413 isn't close to construction though, unlike the 6 bypass and 7 New. The 413 is still years away from environmental approvals.
 

darth_freeman

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I was actually shocked how fast and hard they have pushed the 413 in comparison to the HWY 6 bypass/re-alignment in Guelph and the new alignment of HWY 7 , which have been planned, with approved EA's for years and cost significantly less. While the 413 project is through very sensitive land and will come with a massive price tag to save little time
Save little time you say? :rolleyes:
 

nfitz

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Save little time you say? :rolleyes:
It does say "up to 30 minutes" - which would be the condition when 407/400 are gridlocked, and 413 is flowing freely.

The question should be what is the average time saving. Given that Highway 413 is 52 km, and the distance on the 407 to 400 near the King City ONRoute (where Highway 413 will meet Highway 400) is only 45 km, there are going to be times of day, where the 400/407 is faster.

(for comparison, 401/400 is about 48.5 km and 401/410/400 is about 50 km. Even 401/427/400 is only 51 km!).

That the 413 is the longest route, also means that the province could achieve all the time savings goals by just adding tolls to the 400 at the same levels they use on the 407!
 

kamira51

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Ford made a campaign stop in Kitchener or Guelph to talk about 7 New didn't he? The 413 was the media darling of the election because of how polarizing of an issue it is compared to 7 which has tri-party support.. but Ford's big thing was "build build build" and I think that intends to show that the focus is on more than one project at once.

7 has long been dragged along and they clearly aren't pushing it forward ASAP like they are the Bradford Bypass, but it's still chugging along. I suspect by the next election cycle this will finally actually be under construction.

Not sure if anyone else saw this but I noticed the website for this highway has some new timeliness for bridge construction, ect.


Advanced construction for Phase 3 includes:

  • Highway 7 and Frederick Street underpass replacement in Kitchener (as early as 2022)
  • Highway 6 (Hanlon Parkway) and Woodlawn Road Interchange in Guelph (anticipated as early 2023)
  • Guelph Junction Railway Modifications (anticipated as early 2023)
  • Two Species At Risk (SAR) habitat replacements (anticipated as early 2022)
 

darth_freeman

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It does say "up to 30 minutes" - which would be the condition when 407/400 are gridlocked, and 413 is flowing freely.

The question should be what is the average time saving. Given that Highway 413 is 52 km, and the distance on the 407 to 400 near the King City ONRoute (where Highway 413 will meet Highway 400) is only 45 km, there are going to be times of day, where the 400/407 is faster.

(for comparison, 401/400 is about 48.5 km and 401/410/400 is about 50 km. Even 401/427/400 is only 51 km!).

That the 413 is the longest route, also means that the province could achieve all the time savings goals by just adding tolls to the 400 at the same levels they use on the 407!
Pretty sure engineers/planners don't base decisions for traffic patterns at 3am when everything is flowing freely.

Hell, 413 could actually save 'up to 2 hours' if there are big accidents on 401/400. The biggest advantage aside from time saving though is the increased redundancy, alternate options (in case of accidents, etc.).
 

ericmacm

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Not sure if anyone else saw this but I noticed the website for this highway has some new timeliness for bridge construction, ect.

If the HWY 6/Woodlawn interchange and Guelph Junction Railway grade separations get underway in 2023, their construction will be occurring around same time as the HWY 7 Grand River Bridges which are slated to start a year later. I think the fact that they will be working on both ends of the new highway around the same time is probably the best indicator that full construction will be likely be announced shortly after. The Grand River Bridges are a completely new alignment (they will be expensive to build and let sit unused for many years), and the HWY 6/Woodlawn interchange will actually extend the current terminus of HWY 6 (since the interchange access is split between Woodlawn and Curtis street, located 400m north of Woodlawn).

Here are the detailed design images for anyone who doesn't know or remember what it's going to look like:
attachment.php

attachment.php
 

innsertnamehere

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It does say "up to 30 minutes" - which would be the condition when 407/400 are gridlocked, and 413 is flowing freely.

The question should be what is the average time saving. Given that Highway 413 is 52 km, and the distance on the 407 to 400 near the King City ONRoute (where Highway 413 will meet Highway 400) is only 45 km, there are going to be times of day, where the 400/407 is faster.

(for comparison, 401/400 is about 48.5 km and 401/410/400 is about 50 km. Even 401/427/400 is only 51 km!).

That the 413 is the longest route, also means that the province could achieve all the time savings goals by just adding tolls to the 400 at the same levels they use on the 407!
The travel time projections that result in the "30 mins faster" are indeed for rush hour, but they do indicate some congestion of the 413 as well, just not to the extent that the 401 is expected to have during peak hour in 2041. The 413 is about 2km longer of a route vs. taking the 401/400 if going from Milton to, say, Newmarket, but even in uncongested periods that would likely be mitigated by higher average travel speeds on the 413 as people drive slower through the central 401 at all times of day than they would on the 413 with it's modern design standards, lower traffic volumes, and full-speed interchanges.

Even mid-day and on weekends during off peak periods, the 401 is often congested between the 427 and 400 anyway, mitigating any time savings from the shorter trip distance.

The 407 will be faster much of the time, yes, but it is tolled and a decent percentage of drivers avoid the 407 entirely, and a vast majority avoid it for daily commuting. It costs $19.48 for a passenger vehicle to make that trip during morning rush hour, for example. Trucks also do not use the highway at all, more or less.

At the end of the day, if you are going from the western GTA to north of the GTA, the 413 will result in generally positive time savings. The amount obviously varies significantly based on origin and destination, travel time, willingness to pay for the 407, etc.

The 413 has also been indicated to reduce overall vehicle-hour delays from congestion in the western GTA (including arterial road congestion) by approximately 20%, not even including the trips which are made faster by the new infrastructure even in uncongested times. The majority of congestion relief is actually expected to come from arterial roads in Peel, York, and Halton Regions, which will require far larger widening programs if the highway is not constructed. You will notice that the Town of Halton recently appealed Brampton's "urban boulevard' plan as it forces Halton Region to widen a ton more of it's arterials without the 413 being built.
 

nfitz

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Pretty sure engineers/planners don't base decisions for traffic patterns at 3am when everything is flowing freely.
Flows pretty freely mid-day as well, and even in the evening. And most of the weekend.

The travel time projections that result in the "30 mins faster" are indeed for rush hour, but they do indicate some congestion of the 413 as well, just not to the extent that the 401 is expected to have during peak hour in 2041. The 413 is about 2km longer of a route vs. taking the 401/400 if going from Milton to, say, Newmarket ...
It might be only 2 km longer, but I don't find the roads between the 400 and Newmarket very fast at all.
 

treplow

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I bet the majority of those on 400 heading west also only go a short distance - to 409 or 427. An airport symbol would help too.

Also heading the junction to the west is the 30 ... which one could take all the way to Sorel (unlikely) or to other south-shore destinations (quite likely for those that live near the 40 in Vaudreuil - or even at the very west of the island; heading down Decarie or the 13 and 20 to the Champlain Bridge is often too busy.

Bottom line, is that I agree that the signage to 400/401 is insufficient.

There's other gems around here; most people wanting to get downtown, surely go to the middle, when they should go to the right - which leads to both the QEW East AND West.

View attachment 402161
You can't get on the QEW East from the Mississauga branch of the 403, at least not without exiting first at Upper Middle Rd.
 

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